Last post on Dec 06, 2013 at 7:58 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#14987 of 16984 Re: So is the BMW 328i better then the ATS? [dino001]
Oct 07, 2012 (9:39 am)
Yeah, I read it the same way.
They pulled a Consumer Reports and gave the BMW the win based upon soft and fuzzy nonsense like the seats, and so on. Basically they looked damn hard for any reason whatsoever that they could to make their favorite car not lose the contest. Which is to be expected, really, considering that BMW kind of has been the benchmark for the segment since Volvo stopped making sports sedans in the 90s. They didn't want BMW to lose and any areas which were slight problems were probably given a pass versus them being super critical on the Cadillac. As is human nature when you're dealing with favorites vs a newcomer.
But just like how Mercedes was the luxury car of choice for several decades (say, 1960-1990), BMW is now facing the same sort of problems Mercedes faced when the Japanese got into the fray. Except this time, it's GM coming for them. Nobody expected it and it has to be causing a lot of ulcers for BMW and Mercedes.
That said, nobody is going to buy the ATS with the puny turbo engine. Everyone who has the money will buy the 3.6.
#14988 of 16984 Re: So is the BMW 328i better then the ATS? [plekto]
Oct 07, 2012 (9:54 am)
They gave the win to BMW for OVERALL driving experience, the ATS might have a sportier ride, but after awhile, that sporty ride wears on you. C&D lived the BMW engine over the ATS, as well as the shifting. Now the interior of both are very different, I wish BNW would stop the all black interior, however, the ATS interior looks very busy.
I rented my first XTS, have to say, I liked it, the size is between the 5 series and 7 series, the XTS needs more power, maybe turbo charge the 3.6l engine to make say 350hp. Still waiting for the ATS to make to the rental fleet.
#14989 of 16984 Re: So is the BMW 328i better then the ATS? [flightnurse]
Oct 07, 2012 (10:06 am)
But he did say the ATS was more fun to drive. Since we're talking sports sedans, shouldn't that be a priority?
Also he closed the piece by saying that BMW has to get back to building sports sedans.
#14990 of 16984 Re: So is the BMW 328i better then the ATS? [flightnurse]
Oct 07, 2012 (10:21 am)
"Well according to Car and Driver and carscoops it is. "
Car scoops never said anything of the sort, it said both motor trend and c&d both placed ahead of it. Looks like car snoops is a news gathering blog of sorts.
I've not driven either car but looking at the specs, and its most important spec being price I would be hard pressed, discounts aside to pick the caddy over the BMW. They seem pretty close on everything (I could be wrong) but if they are close on price why would you not pick the perennial leader.
#14991 of 16984 Re: So is the BMW 328i better then the ATS? [sweendogy]
Oct 07, 2012 (10:44 am)
This is a legitimate approach, to go with something you know rather than pick up the newbie, if all things including price are at par.
My take on the whole piece it is now up to GM what they do with ATS. If they see it as a good (great maybe) start and go on relentless self-improvement path, this could be start of something great. However, GM DOES NOT have best track record of self-improvement. If they declare a victory and then expect to sell this product unchanged for next 20 years (excaggerating, of course), this will not matter at all and BMW is safe, even if on their own merrit they depart from their core values.
#14992 of 16984 Re: So is the BMW 328i better then the ATS? [robr2]
Oct 07, 2012 (10:46 am)
He also stated that the ATS was the first competitor to take down BMW. I'm sure BMW is aware of this, as we all know EPA # will be playing a big factor in how these cars perform it was interesting to note, that C/D averaged 23 MPG in the BNW while in the ATS they averaged 19. That is a significant difference.
Something else the C/D editor stated was, the BMW engine was the better of the two, Again, the BMW won because it was over all better, fun to drive was one part of the equation here, but OVERALL makes it a winner.
We can tear apart this review, and I knew people who hold on to just ONE part of the whole driving experience and point just to that and say, "Hey, we like to drive these cars because of XXX." However, winner aren't won because of one part of the test eval.
#14993 of 16984 Re: So is the BMW 328i better then the ATS? [dino001]
Oct 07, 2012 (10:50 am)
Dino I agree, however, GM has spent a lot of money on the car and have taken a completely different approach on this car as well as the XTS. I'm hoping that GM does continue to improve the car, this is where I think Infiniti lost it. Infiniti is happy to be where they are, I do not see GM being that way. As I stated before, this is great for us, I'm sure BMW will look at the ATS and say, HEY, we need to get serious about this again and make a mid-cycle change to the F30 that will pull it away from the pack... The ATS has more power then the BMW, however the engine in the BMW appears to make the power easier then the ATS...
#14994 of 16984 Re: So is the BMW 328i better then the ATS? [flightnurse]
Oct 07, 2012 (10:59 am)
I just read they put ATS on the dyno and it somehow "lost" so much of the power from the engine to the wheels that the output was comparable to 328. That could also partially explain the gas mileage disparity - drivertrain losses. Another explanation can be in the power curve itself. The ATS has probably much more "peaky" curve, which forces one to drive it harder to get similar performance.
#14995 of 16984 Let me ask a question
Oct 07, 2012 (11:24 am)
Has anybody driven a 10 year old Cadillac anything and come away impressed?? I certainly haven't.
Yet last week I drove a 2001 BMW M5 with 120,000 miles on the odometer that a friend just bought from the original owner. This car drives better, with fewer rattles, than any 2 year old Caddy sitting on your local dealer lot. The paint looks better than a brand new Caddy.
The fact is that for GM to be successful against BMW they have to produce a quality vehicle that will remain so for a decade. And they need to start with performance and pricing that is compellingly better. The fact that the ATS is priced the same, with no better performance than the 328 is IMO not going to win many crossover buyers.
#14996 of 16984 Re: Let me ask a question [habitat1]
Oct 07, 2012 (11:41 am)
Well, Cadillac has a habit of large cash rebates, so let's wait and see how the transaction price will look in a year. I agree with the rest of the your point. It took GM 30 years to squander its long legacy, it may take them twice as long to rebuild it. When a trailing runner wants to get up front, they have to run faster, not just as fast. At best, it seems ATS is just as good, not better than 328. This is something to talk about, but it is NOT something that would suddenly make GM a new leader in next two years. If they undertstand it is not a drag race to next light, but rather a multistage championship tour, where everybody makes improvements constantly, they have a chance. If, on the other hand, they sit on the laurels of "job well done", they concede the chase, before they even started. ATS - good start, even really good start perhaps. Just don't assume you're done, GM.
The longevity of the design is also a good question - we shall see about that in five to ten years.