Last post on Dec 06, 2013 at 7:58 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#14933 of 16984 Re: It finally happened [flightnurse]
Sep 21, 2012 (5:02 am)
On cheap leasing- Infiniti is just a carbon copy of what BMW has done for years- don't have the exact number but it's well over 50% of 3s are leased. They also have good residual value (and let's not forget the maintence scam) . So BMW has been doing the same thing for years guess you hadn't noticed the amound of $45k cars rolling on the LIE during the mini recession of 07-2010.
#14934 of 16984 Second Place Misconception?
Sep 21, 2012 (5:14 am)
I don't think anybody knowingly buys a car that is in "second place" for what their priorities are.
I would agree that if you compare certain driving dynamics of the G37 vs. the 335i you will conclude that BMW has the edge. But do the same thing for a FWD or even AWD automatic TL, and you come to the same conclusion just as quickly. Price point, features, maintenance costs, etc. all come into play and - hopefully - one has the good sense to buy what they believe is the right combination for them.
The problem would be if Infiniti priced the G37 exactly the same as a 335i, offered exactly the same features and options, marketed the car as a direct competitor to the 335i, but fell short on driving dynamics. I don't think that's the case here.
Personally, I think the 335i would fall into second place if I was buying a sedan today. At a price that is at or above $55k for a well optioned, performance model, it is way too close to the $65k+/- that I could buy an naturally aspirated 8,400 rpm M3 at. No comparison on driving dynamics, period. But that's my value judgement and someone else's is likely to be different.
#14935 of 16984 Re: Second Place Misconception? [habitat1]
Sep 21, 2012 (6:58 am)
335i - already 3rd place behind MB and Audi IME. Mebbe 4th behind Infiniti if price is considered. In front of Lexus though.
#14936 of 16984 Re: Second Place Misconception? [wireless]
Sep 21, 2012 (7:21 am)
Again, I respect your subjective assessment based upon your priorities/preferences. I can't imagine anyone objectively giving Mercedes or Audi a higher objective mark than the 335i in driving dynamics (assuming you are comparing to a RWD, manual transmission, sport package 335i). But, obviously, a lot of people buy Mercedes and Audi based upon other preferences and priorities.
Even when I bought my 2004 TL 6-speed, I was willing to compromise on driving dynamics to save $10k, get more space, a little better foul weather traction, and the Acura reliability/lower cost maintenance peace of mind. I would not make that same choice today. Different time, different circumstances, different priorities. That's not to say I didn't make my "first choice" in 2004 correctly, just that I would make a different one today.
#14937 of 16984 Re: Second Place Misconception? [habitat1]
Sep 21, 2012 (8:30 am)
"I can't imagine anyone objectively giving Mercedes or Audi a higher objective mark than the 335i in driving dynamics "
I didn't read into his statement that driving dynamics was the only consideration. This topic, ELLPS, is not just for people looking to drive like Mario Andretti the 1% of the time they get the chance. People look at these vehicles for many different reasons so just because a car is #1 in driving dynamics does not make it the best car in this class. To some it may, but others may put long term relaiblility and less frequent and expensive repairs at the top of their priority list. Lots of different folks in this category and not just those that want to drive a car to it's absolute limits. If one never drives a car to it's absolute limits than that factor becomes much less of a consideration.
#14938 of 16984 Re: Second Place Misconception? [habitat1]
Sep 21, 2012 (9:44 am)
Personally, I think the 335i would fall into second place if I was buying a sedan today. At a price that is at or above $55k for a well optioned, performance model, it is way too close to the $65k+/- that I could buy an naturally aspirated 8,400 rpm M3 at
I think your line of thinking is completely different than many people who buy in this category. There are a lot of people out there who lease. I also believe there are A LOT of people out there who lease and do not understand leasing. You say that $55K + is too much for a 335i & you'd rather have an M3 for not too much more. I think there are a lot of "aspiring" aspiring ELLPS buyers/lessors who put money down on leases and say "you know, for another $X down and just $Y per month more, I could be driving a 335i instead of a 328i."
Sep 21, 2012 (10:03 am)
To say that one manufacturer is better than another because of the current lease terms or current incentives is not right. Every manufacturer in this segment has some kind of different incentive every month to move metal. We all know how they do it.
BMW subsidizes their leases with high residual values. According to BMWFS, after 30 months my 2011 328xi will be worth $26,406 with 50K on the odometer. My car is going straight to auction and they will loose their shirt. The car will be 3 model years old (with the 2015s coming out not too long after that, so almost 4) and the old body style.
Infiniti uses low money factors.
Mercedes-Benz uses conquest cash.
Acura uses loyalty cash & low APR. If you follow the "prices paid" or "lease questions" of any particular make/model it is apparent.
I'll be the 1st one to admit that my 2011 E90 328xi lease is a splurge for me. If it wasn't for the generous incentives ($2500 cash, sixty something percent residual value after 30 months, BMWFS makes 1st 2 payments up to $500 each) offered by BMWFS in March 2012 on leftover 2011 models, I'd still be driving my 2010 Acura TSX.
#14940 of 16984 Re: Second Place Misconception? [nyccarguy]
Sep 21, 2012 (12:19 pm)
I think you are right about the lease vs. buy tending to cloud or change the value analysis. I always buy and pay with cash. Keeps me from overspending and - especially when I had my 911 "fun" car - feeling guilty that I had payments due in January February and March with the car sitting in my garage.
Lease equations can lead to different results. When we just bought our X5d, I couldn't see paying $1,500 for the premium sound package given what I thought was nominal benefit. But if it had worked out to only $10 extra per month for 36 months due to the way BMW makes the numbers work, maybe I would figured what the hell and checked the box.
#14941 of 16984 Re: Second Place Misconception? [habitat1]
Sep 21, 2012 (1:18 pm)
I think the majority of us here on the ELLPS board DO NOT represent the typical buyer. We're enthusiasts, many of us would take a stick even if it meant giving up a few 10ths to 60 & a few mpg on the hwy (if it weren't for our wives), & we shop for the car we like to drive rather than wear.
There are people out there who have the mindset that a car payment is like another monthly bill. They like the smell of a new car every 2-3 years. If they are going to pay $500 a month (on a 60 month loan) for a loaded CamCord, then they might as well pay $600 a month (I'm just throwing this number out there) for a $45 - $50K BMW on a lease.
#14942 of 16984 Re: It finally happened [sweendogy]
Sep 21, 2012 (8:33 pm)
BMW has three option to purchase a car, typical financing, leasing and what BMW calls BMW Select. The BMW Select is very much like a lease, except there are no mileage restriction... So BMW has multi ways of buying a BMW.
BTW, BMW does not have a special for 18 months like the Infiniti, and no one can not lease a $45K BMW for $280/m with only $2200 out of pocket.