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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

16087 messages,  Last post on May 09, 2013 at 9:32 AM

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What is this discussion about? BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan

Messages Page 1494 of 1610

#14922 of 16087 Re: It finally happened [sweendogy] by flightnurse

Sep 18, 2012 (8:48 pm)

Replying to: sweendogy (Sep 18, 2012 5:51 pm)
Value only goes so far, lets take my partners Genesis, for 2012, the V8 came fully loaded, no options, and it listed at $46K, priced paid was $39K (plus tax and fee's). It is bigger than a E Class and 5 Series, but smaller than 7 series and S Class. Now how many people who bought a E class or 5 series crossed shopped the Genesis, maybe not many, but they should have, but because people wanted a E class or 5 series that is what they bought regardless of price, even though the Genesis was a better value..
 
There is a point in which value can only take you so far, and I think Infiniti is getting to that point with the G and M...

#14923 of 16087 Re: It finally happened [flightnurse] by habitat1

Sep 19, 2012 (4:22 am)

Replying to: flightnurse (Sep 18, 2012 8:48 pm)
Infiniti will be cross shopped by some BMW and Mercedes shoppers because although it may have some shortcomings, it is still generally considered a luxury brand. Infiniti may need to be value priced because of the shortcomings, but not necessarily because of a downscale image.
 
Hyundai is not considered a luxury brand and must be very aggressive in its pricing to convince even a few E class buyers that a Genesis, coming from the makers of an Elantra, is worth a look. Add to that, quite a few of the current E class/5 series demographic are old enough to remember early Excels that were complete pieces of crap. A friend who bought one in the 1990's literally had the paint start peeling off the car inside of 3 years.
 
Hyundai has improved considerably from those early days, but it is still very challenging to have your bread and butter cars selling for $15,000 to $19,000 and expect to get a lot of BMW/Mercedes/Audi cross shoppers into a showroom with a $40,000 Genesis or even more of a stretch $60,000 Equus. Even the Mercedes dealer down the road has a separate area of the showroom for AMG cars so that someone shopping for a $100,000 CLS63 doesn't have to rub elbows with someone shopping for a nice little $35,000 C250.
 
Besides image, there is another value factor that is a little hard to quantify at this point. The price of a BMW/Mercedes can partly be rationalized by the belief from many decades of history that in 8-10 years it will still be a good, solid luxury car. Maybe not with the latest gadgets and do-dads, but certainly not ready for the junkyard. Hyundai has a few decades to go before they will have any kind of similar legacy. In fact, most 8-10 year old Hyundias are a direct contradiction to what they are now trying to position themselves at.

#14924 of 16087 Re: It finally happened [habitat1] by flightnurse

Sep 19, 2012 (6:03 am)

Replying to: habitat1 (Sep 19, 2012 4:22 am)
I agree with everything you stated, I don't think my post said other wise, however, infiniti can only be based as a value buy for a short time. I'm sure the next Gen G, will help improve the short comings that the car has, but at a price, and we will see the price of the car go up.

#14925 of 16087 Re: It finally happened [flightnurse] by robbieg

Sep 19, 2012 (8:12 am)

Replying to: flightnurse (Sep 19, 2012 6:03 am)
I don't see why Infiniti can only be a value buy for a short time. I would think that they could and will continue to produce cars that are close to a BMW and at a decent discount.
 
I think this is Cadillac's problem that they aren't willing to accept the fact they are a "value" luxury car. I personally think a Cadillac is on the same level as Infiniti and less than Audi, BMW, Mercedes and Lexus, and above Acura. Lincoln is a lost cause as far as I am concerned.
 
Another point, why does Infiniti and Cadillac put logos on some of their seats?

#14926 of 16087 Re: It finally happened [flightnurse] by sweendogy

Sep 19, 2012 (8:33 am)

Replying to: flightnurse (Sep 19, 2012 6:03 am)
What is a short period of time- ? the g35/37 is now in its 10th year, and 2 generations. I'm sure we will see a hike in price but don't you think Infiniti knows its main draw is similar performance at a cheaper price- I mean it's been doing it right for 10 plus years.

#14927 of 16087 Re: It finally happened [flightnurse] by m6user

Sep 19, 2012 (8:43 am)

Replying to: flightnurse (Sep 19, 2012 6:03 am)
infiniti can only be based as a value buy for a short time.
 
Why? No, car will ever be exactly the same as a BMW, or any other brand for that matter, as they all have their little differences. Infiniti has chosen a path to be similar to a BMW but also different( and in some categories better) and for a little less money. Seems to work for them so why do you say they can only do it for a short time? I don't try to come off as a marketing genius like some people but that's like saying BMW can only price a 3 series up to mid $50s for a short time because it costs too much. Silly.
 
Just because something is priced a few thousand less does not make it any less of luxury car. If the car itself deserves to be in luxury class because of it's trimmings, equipment, quality and dealer experience...then it is.

#14928 of 16087 Re: It finally happened [robbieg] by graphicguy

Sep 19, 2012 (3:04 pm)

Replying to: robbieg (Sep 19, 2012 8:12 am)
robbie....I agree with your assessments. I don't know that Cadillac can shake its "value luxury" image, no matter what they do.
 
FN....I see what you're saying. But, I think it stems from the fact that both Infiniti and Acura were, at least at their inception, marketed as BMW/Mercedes/Audi competitors. Whether it was ever true, I really don't know. I know the Legend was, at one time, King of the sport/lux hill. Lexus always chose the roll of a "better" Buick/Cadillac. The Infiniti M has tried, mostly in vain, to compete with the E Series, 5 series, A6. It never really crossed that barrier. The G got close to the BMW3, but never quite got there. Now, Infiniti seems to have fallen even farther behind.
 
But, I can't tell if this is a temporary thing for Infiniti (or for Acura, for that matter). We'll see. As both the RL/TL(X) and the G are due for major redos. Hard to tell where they'll fall with those vehicles.

#14929 of 16087 Re: It finally happened [graphicguy] by sweendogy

Sep 19, 2012 (4:02 pm)

Replying to: graphicguy (Sep 19, 2012 3:04 pm)
Lots of generalizations - no real facts in the statements above. Look at the us sales numbers and tell me how much they have fallen (except Acura)
 
Try again

#14930 of 16087 Re: It finally happened [sweendogy] by flightnurse

Sep 20, 2012 (9:29 pm)

Replying to: sweendogy (Sep 19, 2012 8:33 am)
Sweeny if you think Infiniti is happy with second place think twice... Infiniti has ALWAYS been in second place, with the competition getting better and better, and for less money or the same as Infiniti why would anyone want to get a car that is always in second place?

#14931 of 16087 Re: It finally happened [sweendogy] by flightnurse

Sep 20, 2012 (9:36 pm)

Replying to: sweendogy (Sep 19, 2012 4:02 pm)
Sweeny, over on the Infiniti board here on Edmond's, the price/lease payments for the G37's are crazy low, 18 month lease with $1800 out of pocket and payments of $280/m+ tax that is a steal, so if infiniti is "selling" a lof of them it is because of these insanely low prices, their money factor must be next to none thing. This indicator only shows that people are looking for a great deal and are happy with the Infiniti, I wonder if BMW did the same thing, how many cars they would move...

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