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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

16249 messages,  Last post on Jun 17, 2013 at 9:27 AM

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What is this discussion about? BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan

Messages Page 1493 of 1626

#14916 of 16249 Re: You know what? [m6user] by flightnurse

Sep 18, 2012 (8:17 am)

Replying to: m6user (Sep 18, 2012 5:35 am)
Interesting I swear the window sticker said the 4 cyl had the 6 spd. Either way just too small, and I was told that the X1 might take over for the 3 series wagon, I hope not...

#14917 of 16249 Re: #2 Re: BMW Transmissions - Best Choice?? [habitat1] by flightnurse

Sep 18, 2012 (8:23 am)

Replying to: habitat1 (Sep 18, 2012 7:58 am)
I highly doubt you can shift your 911 faster then a DCT.
 
In regards to your X5d, the torque band if so flat that having a 8 spd auto would be very beneficial in aiding more MPG without sacrificing performance.

#14918 of 16249 Re: BMW Transmissions - Best Choice?? [habitat1] by habitat1

Sep 18, 2012 (9:00 am)

Replying to: habitat1 (Sep 18, 2012 5:13 am)
Should have clarified that in my "rankings":
 
#1 6-speed manual
#2 7-speed DCT (M series, $2,900 option)
#3 7-speed DCT (non-M, $450 option)
#4 8-speed automatic
 
Let's not confuse high end DCTs in the M3 or Porsche's PDK in the 911 with the DCT used by BMW in the standard 3/5 series. Very different in terms of design, performance - and cost. $2,900 for the BMW, $4,000 for the PDK, $10,000 for Ferrari. You aren't going to get that level of engineering or construction by checking a $450 box with BMW or VW.
 
As for my manual shifting speed vs. a DCT. That's not the issue. I'll give up a tenth or two in the 0-60 (one shift) drag race in order to get the direct control and the engagement factor of driving the car. I understand that's a personal choice. I'm no Bubba Watson, but I still play golf from the tips of a 7,100 yard course because I want the full effect. I know I could score a few strokes better from the white tee box, but it wouldn't be as satisfying. It makes me laugh that some of my playing partners will spend $500 on a driver and then moan like babies when I suggest we play the black tees rather than the blues or whites.
 
Regarding the X5d, the flat torque curve is precisely why you don't need as many gears. Every gear change results in energy loss. Small, but a loss nonetheless. By the time you get to highway speeds, the final gear ratio is all that matters, not how many shifts it took to get there. Around town, an extra gear or two might help, but a 5,300 pound curb weight is still the overriding factor.

#14919 of 16249 #3 Re: BMW Transmissions - Best Choice?? [habitat1] by rayainsw

Sep 18, 2012 (9:03 am)

Replying to: habitat1 (Sep 18, 2012 9:00 am)
OK - my choice is now #3.
All other comments still apply.
- Ray
Happy with the performance - and the cost....

#14920 of 16249 Re: BMW Transmissions - Best Choice?? [habitat1] by flightnurse

Sep 18, 2012 (4:04 pm)

Replying to: habitat1 (Sep 18, 2012 9:00 am)
I hear what you are saying as before I was the one who would never get a car that didn't have an auto, but not too sure if it age and or wisdom or both, but give me a good DCT over a manual...
 
So in theory a CVT would be the best transmission since it does not have to shift so no energy is lost. Even though we know that Nissan is working overtime to perfect it, they have come a long way with the new Generation Altima and Infiniti JX, but to see a CVT in a true performance car, Nissan has it's work cut out for themselves.

#14921 of 16249 Re: It finally happened [flightnurse] by sweendogy

Sep 18, 2012 (5:51 pm)

Replying to: flightnurse (Sep 18, 2012 8:12 am)
I agree Infiniti is doing it with HP- but it's also doing it with price- real dollars that can pay for a boatload of gas and oil changes.

#14922 of 16249 Re: It finally happened [sweendogy] by flightnurse

Sep 18, 2012 (8:48 pm)

Replying to: sweendogy (Sep 18, 2012 5:51 pm)
Value only goes so far, lets take my partners Genesis, for 2012, the V8 came fully loaded, no options, and it listed at $46K, priced paid was $39K (plus tax and fee's). It is bigger than a E Class and 5 Series, but smaller than 7 series and S Class. Now how many people who bought a E class or 5 series crossed shopped the Genesis, maybe not many, but they should have, but because people wanted a E class or 5 series that is what they bought regardless of price, even though the Genesis was a better value..
 
There is a point in which value can only take you so far, and I think Infiniti is getting to that point with the G and M...

#14923 of 16249 Re: It finally happened [flightnurse] by habitat1

Sep 19, 2012 (4:22 am)

Replying to: flightnurse (Sep 18, 2012 8:48 pm)
Infiniti will be cross shopped by some BMW and Mercedes shoppers because although it may have some shortcomings, it is still generally considered a luxury brand. Infiniti may need to be value priced because of the shortcomings, but not necessarily because of a downscale image.
 
Hyundai is not considered a luxury brand and must be very aggressive in its pricing to convince even a few E class buyers that a Genesis, coming from the makers of an Elantra, is worth a look. Add to that, quite a few of the current E class/5 series demographic are old enough to remember early Excels that were complete pieces of crap. A friend who bought one in the 1990's literally had the paint start peeling off the car inside of 3 years.
 
Hyundai has improved considerably from those early days, but it is still very challenging to have your bread and butter cars selling for $15,000 to $19,000 and expect to get a lot of BMW/Mercedes/Audi cross shoppers into a showroom with a $40,000 Genesis or even more of a stretch $60,000 Equus. Even the Mercedes dealer down the road has a separate area of the showroom for AMG cars so that someone shopping for a $100,000 CLS63 doesn't have to rub elbows with someone shopping for a nice little $35,000 C250.
 
Besides image, there is another value factor that is a little hard to quantify at this point. The price of a BMW/Mercedes can partly be rationalized by the belief from many decades of history that in 8-10 years it will still be a good, solid luxury car. Maybe not with the latest gadgets and do-dads, but certainly not ready for the junkyard. Hyundai has a few decades to go before they will have any kind of similar legacy. In fact, most 8-10 year old Hyundias are a direct contradiction to what they are now trying to position themselves at.

#14924 of 16249 Re: It finally happened [habitat1] by flightnurse

Sep 19, 2012 (6:03 am)

Replying to: habitat1 (Sep 19, 2012 4:22 am)
I agree with everything you stated, I don't think my post said other wise, however, infiniti can only be based as a value buy for a short time. I'm sure the next Gen G, will help improve the short comings that the car has, but at a price, and we will see the price of the car go up.

#14925 of 16249 Re: It finally happened [flightnurse] by robbieg

Sep 19, 2012 (8:12 am)

Replying to: flightnurse (Sep 19, 2012 6:03 am)
I don't see why Infiniti can only be a value buy for a short time. I would think that they could and will continue to produce cars that are close to a BMW and at a decent discount.
 
I think this is Cadillac's problem that they aren't willing to accept the fact they are a "value" luxury car. I personally think a Cadillac is on the same level as Infiniti and less than Audi, BMW, Mercedes and Lexus, and above Acura. Lincoln is a lost cause as far as I am concerned.
 
Another point, why does Infiniti and Cadillac put logos on some of their seats?

Messages Page 1493 of 1626

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