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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

16087 messages,  Last post on May 09, 2013 at 9:32 AM

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What is this discussion about? BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan

Messages Page 1469 of 1610

#14675 of 16087 Re: ELLPS [sweendogy] by habitat1

Aug 09, 2012 (7:08 pm)

Replying to: sweendogy (Aug 09, 2012 6:45 pm)
And that was interesting homework, but I don't quite get it. The "take rate" for the TL is 5%, but the odds of one being sold is 6305 to 1?? 5% is a lot closer to the actual sales ratios I've heard.
 
Interestingly, we came very close to getting a 2012 Cayenne 6-speed manual instead of a BMW X5d. Beautiful black on back one at Auto Palace in Pittsburgh. If it wasn't for the fact that it's just a hair too small inside and I didn't really want to pay Porsche service costs for the next 10 years and 150k miles, we would have gone for it. According to your article, that one has a take rate of 1.3% and an odds of 37,000 to one. Which means that at 5,000 to 1 for a hole in one, I should get 7+ aces if I let my wife get the Cayenne? Maybe I should rethink that.
 
Thanks for posting your sources. Still not sure why the "take rate" and "odds of selling" are so at odds with one another. But at least I will know to never question your homework skills again.

#14676 of 16087 Re: ELLPS [habitat1] by sweendogy

Aug 09, 2012 (7:42 pm)

Replying to: habitat1 (Aug 09, 2012 7:08 pm)
Take it up with motor trend, its not my article as I didn't write it, I used it as a resource. I was surprised about the Camry number, also 50/50 rate on the S5 is pretty cool (save the manuals)
 
Btw how are you getting to the number you heard?
 
And yes I only post numbers that are researched, why clutter the board with Jargon or opinion when talking about specific numbers.

#14677 of 16087 Die Hard by markcincinnati

Aug 09, 2012 (8:48 pm)

The 3% number for Premium Cars with manual transmissions is the number the enthusiasts magazines used in 2010. I would assume the number has declined what with the increase in excellent 6, 7, and 8 speed "clutchless" automatics.
 
For those of you who see no merit in comparing a TL SH-AWD to an S4, I do understand your incredulity. I was exactly in that mind-set until I drove the two cars back to back one long afternoon of test driving in June or July, 2011.
 
There is no way the S4 is NOT more satisfying and overall believable as a performance car. Nevertheless, the TL SH-AWD with the 19" wheels, driven exactly over the same test drive route and the same speeds (up to 90mph) feels somewhat like a diluted S4. The S4 is the better machine, there is no argument from me on that point. Where I found myself able to rationalize and accept the TL (after 29 Audis in a row) was when I contented the two similarly and found the Audi required an MSRP bump in excess of $11,000.
 
I live in Cincinnati, a small city or a big town, replete with at least twice-daily traffic clogs on our three Interstates. The chances, my chances, that is, of being able to ever tap the potential of the S4 continue to erode -- although there remain a few chances to make forward progress at speeds in excess of 65MPH. The S4 does rip through the TL's performance envelope, but the TL SH-AWD with the 19" wheel and tire upgrade rips through most other car's performance envelopes -- but even then, there is a decreasing window of opportunity to use its performance.
 
I have not been drinking any Kool-aid -- I am not suggesting you should succumb to the price differential if you are willing and able to pay the price for an S4 Prestige with several options that crank its price up over 5 figures more than the TL.
 
What I am suggesting, or asking, is that you do test drive a TL SH-AWD advance or TL SH-AWD tech with the upgraded wheels and tires and with the super slick 6-speed stick.
 
It is difficult to learn to love, let alone like, the TL's nose and butt, and the interior has "too much Honda" in it -- but damn, the TL SH-AWD Advance can be loaded up with options and leased for less than $550 per month for 36 months. If you have not driven this car equipped thusly, I believe you will be impressed.
 
I do not believe you will think you are driving an S4, I believe you may think of the TL SH-AWD Advance as a "second cousin, twice removed," however.
 
 

#14678 of 16087 Re: ELLPS [sweendogy] by flightnurse

Aug 09, 2012 (10:08 pm)

Replying to: sweendogy (Aug 09, 2012 6:45 pm)
What a horrible article, first off the VW, Toyota manuals are regional, my zip code you can not build a VW Tiguan or Toyota Camry with a manual. I believe this a east coast thing.

#14679 of 16087 Re: ELLPS [sweendogy] by habitat1

Aug 10, 2012 (5:38 am)

Replying to: sweendogy (Aug 09, 2012 7:42 pm)
O.K., I think I figured it out.
 
The "take rate" of 5% for the TL means that 5% of all TL's in 2010 were manual transmissions. The 1 in 6305 odds of being sold means that of ALL cars sold in the US in 2010, 1 in 6,305 was a manual TL.
 
Test: The "take rate" on the Camry was 3%, but the odds were 1 in 1237. Which if you do the math backwards, implies that there were about 8.5 times as many Camry's sold in the US than TL's. According to the site listed below, total TL sales were 34,039 in 2010 and total Camry sales were 327,804. That's 9.5 times as many, but given Motor Trend rounded the "take rate" to the nearest percent, is within the rounding error.
 
sales by model
 
Looking at it another way, total car sales in the US were 11,371,674 in 2010. Odds of one of those cars being a manual TL, 1 in 6305 = 1,804 total. Odds of one of those being a manual Camry, 1 in 1,237 = 9,193 total. Odds of one of those being a manual Cayenne, 1 in 37,361 = 304 total.
 
P.S. I personally test drove 1.3% of all manual Cayennes made in 2010 (1 GTS and 3 V6's). Does that make me an "expert"??
 
Cheers.

#14680 of 16087 Re: ELLPS [flightnurse] by sweendogy

Aug 10, 2012 (5:47 am)

Replying to: flightnurse (Aug 09, 2012 10:08 pm)
Article is what it is, its A well Respected car mag and You have the right to dissagree with it. Manuals for the Camry were dropped in 2012, prob the reason you can't build a manual in the region, or any region in the us, data cited was 2010.
Vw you can still for 2012 get the Tiguan base S model without sunroof with a 6 speed. Don't know IF this goes away for 2013.
 
I think your responce was incorrect.

#14681 of 16087 Re: ELLPS [habitat1] by sweendogy

Aug 10, 2012 (5:53 am)

Replying to: habitat1 (Aug 10, 2012 5:38 am)
Nice work on crunching the numbers.
I don't get the "expert" part but for sure you were one of very few who drive such a car.

#14682 of 16087 Re: ELLPS [sweendogy] by flightnurse

Aug 10, 2012 (8:03 am)

Replying to: sweendogy (Aug 10, 2012 5:47 am)
Sweeny I'm not incorrect, back in 2010 a co worker who moved from NC to PHX, had a 2010 Camry SE 4 cyl with a 6 spd manual, when I told him that you can't buy one here in PHX, he was shocked. Toyota has been doing this for years, having regional cars, now not too sure why one could not buy a SE with a stick nationwide.
 
If you type in 28201 (Charlotte,NC) you can build yourself a Tiguan with 6 spd just as you stated, however, when type 85006, no 6 spd manual. So again, horrible article, if someone was to read tha article then they would think they should be able to to buy one.

#14683 of 16087 Re: ELLPS [habitat1] by flightnurse

Aug 10, 2012 (8:07 am)

Replying to: habitat1 (Aug 10, 2012 5:38 am)
P.S. I personally test drove 1.3% of all manual Cayennes made in 2010 (1 GTS and 3 V6's). Does that make me an "expert"??
 
In the sense of what the term expert means, yes.
 
BTW, when I test drove a Cayenne GTS, I was very surprised how the size shrunk the faster I drove it. BTW, The GTS model's that Porsche builds IMO is the best one to get just the right amount of go fast goodies and luxury combined.

#14684 of 16087 VW GTD by flightnurse

Aug 10, 2012 (8:11 am)

It appears that VW has built a GTi version with a diesel engine in Europe and has been selling very well. VW is thinking of bring it over here to the states, it gets the larger Hp rated 2l diesel that we get here 170hp and 250lbs of torque. The torque is up slightly, but the HP is up by 30, so what do you guys think of this?

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