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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

16249 messages,  Last post on Jun 17, 2013 at 9:27 AM

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What is this discussion about? BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan

Messages Page 1468 of 1625

#14670 of 16249 Re: ELLPS [markcincinnati] by fedlawman

Aug 09, 2012 (6:10 pm)

Replying to: markcincinnati (Aug 09, 2012 3:23 pm)
I agree the TL SH-AWD is a terrific car, and with discounts is also a good buy. My comments about Acura really sum up my overall disappointment with the downward spiral of their entire lineup.
 
In 2004 they had the RSX which, while arguably not deserving of the Acura badge, was a terrific sports car (especially in "S" trim). Then there was the first gen TSX 6MT. It's ride, handling styling, driveline, etc. had such a synergy that, for me, made it an even match for the BMW 3-series. And the TL in 2004 was lean and mean, with good looks, powerful driveline, and sharp reflexes.
 
Today, the only Acura worth a second glance is the TL SH-AWD. And even their best has polarizing looks (I'm being polite ) and an unattractive cockpit with too many buttons (my opinion).
 
For me, even with a bottom-of-the-line A4, you get a handsome, elegant sedan that does no wrong. Now I'll admit that I'm not a bells and whistles kind of guy, so i don't care if my car has back up cameras, Nav, and surround audio. Hell, I even prefer cloth and pleather to genuine cowhide!
 
Oh well, I'm just one enthusiast with admittedly unconventional tastes. And I've admitted before that I became alienated from this segment several years ago when I discovered the joys of E30's.
 
Thank you and Habitat for setting the record straight on the SH-AWD - I did do it a disservice by not mentioning it in my initial comment.

#14671 of 16249 Re: ELLPS [sweendogy] by mcdawgg

Aug 09, 2012 (6:13 pm)

Replying to: sweendogy (Aug 09, 2012 4:30 pm)
"2010 stats- odds of a camry being sold with a manual 1237 to one, total cars Sold 325k in the states.
Outbacks 1300 to one they sold 93k in the states
Acura TL 6305 to one "
 
I have one of those 2010 Camry 6 speed manuals. Love it. People say Camry's are boring, but the 6 speed manual makes it better than ANY automatic, CVT, whatever, in my opinion.

#14672 of 16249 Re: ELLPS [sweendogy] by habitat1

Aug 09, 2012 (6:32 pm)

Replying to: sweendogy (Aug 09, 2012 4:30 pm)
Acura TL 6305 to one
 
Where in the world did this stat come from? Had they discontinued the 6MT in 2010? (I wasn't in market and don't know).
 
In any event, there are 3 TL manuals sitting on Pohanka Acura's lot right now, and they have sold at least 10-12 so far this year. That kind of blows the 1 in 6305 out of the water for 2012. I've been told that manual transmissions on the TL this year are running about 3%, which would make it 33 to 1. Or 190 to 6305.
 
It is a shame in my opinion. The TL manual gets an 8.5 out of 10 on my scale for crisp feel, short throw. Behind my S2000 (rate 9) and 911S (rate 10), but ahead of all non-M BMW's, all Audi's, and the G37. Just rating the gearbox, mind you, not the car. On the other hand, the TL (and MDX) automatic gets a 3 on my rating scale. Way too much lag time and mushiness in response. The MDX and X5d have almost identical 0-60 times on paper, but when you drive them, they couldn't feel more different when you accelerate from a standstill or punch it on the highway.

#14673 of 16249 Re: ELLPS [mcdawgg] by sweendogy

Aug 09, 2012 (6:34 pm)

Replying to: mcdawgg (Aug 09, 2012 6:13 pm)
Yeah buddy where we're you 2 mths ago when I was getting killed on these boards - trying to save the manuals - good for you man-
 
Lots of guys on this board are auto lovers - but also claim to be enthusiast, they will talk dsg, dct, cvt all day long, one guy even mentioned Lamborghini as being now auto only as his argument- pretty funny stuff.
 
Enjoy the ride.

#14674 of 16249 Re: ELLPS [habitat1] by sweendogy

Aug 09, 2012 (6:45 pm)

Replying to: habitat1 (Aug 09, 2012 6:32 pm)
Where in the world? Here buddy, I always do homework(ask flight).
 
http://www.motortrend.com/features/consumer/1004_10_cars_you_didnt_know_you_coul- d_get_with_a_stick/viewall.html
 
I bet you could get a sweet deal on those 3 sitting on your local dealers lot- not only does he have to sell a weird looking car - but he has to sell a manual of such car.

#14675 of 16249 Re: ELLPS [sweendogy] by habitat1

Aug 09, 2012 (7:08 pm)

Replying to: sweendogy (Aug 09, 2012 6:45 pm)
And that was interesting homework, but I don't quite get it. The "take rate" for the TL is 5%, but the odds of one being sold is 6305 to 1?? 5% is a lot closer to the actual sales ratios I've heard.
 
Interestingly, we came very close to getting a 2012 Cayenne 6-speed manual instead of a BMW X5d. Beautiful black on back one at Auto Palace in Pittsburgh. If it wasn't for the fact that it's just a hair too small inside and I didn't really want to pay Porsche service costs for the next 10 years and 150k miles, we would have gone for it. According to your article, that one has a take rate of 1.3% and an odds of 37,000 to one. Which means that at 5,000 to 1 for a hole in one, I should get 7+ aces if I let my wife get the Cayenne? Maybe I should rethink that.
 
Thanks for posting your sources. Still not sure why the "take rate" and "odds of selling" are so at odds with one another. But at least I will know to never question your homework skills again.

#14676 of 16249 Re: ELLPS [habitat1] by sweendogy

Aug 09, 2012 (7:42 pm)

Replying to: habitat1 (Aug 09, 2012 7:08 pm)
Take it up with motor trend, its not my article as I didn't write it, I used it as a resource. I was surprised about the Camry number, also 50/50 rate on the S5 is pretty cool (save the manuals)
 
Btw how are you getting to the number you heard?
 
And yes I only post numbers that are researched, why clutter the board with Jargon or opinion when talking about specific numbers.

#14677 of 16249 Die Hard by markcincinnati

Aug 09, 2012 (8:48 pm)

The 3% number for Premium Cars with manual transmissions is the number the enthusiasts magazines used in 2010. I would assume the number has declined what with the increase in excellent 6, 7, and 8 speed "clutchless" automatics.
 
For those of you who see no merit in comparing a TL SH-AWD to an S4, I do understand your incredulity. I was exactly in that mind-set until I drove the two cars back to back one long afternoon of test driving in June or July, 2011.
 
There is no way the S4 is NOT more satisfying and overall believable as a performance car. Nevertheless, the TL SH-AWD with the 19" wheels, driven exactly over the same test drive route and the same speeds (up to 90mph) feels somewhat like a diluted S4. The S4 is the better machine, there is no argument from me on that point. Where I found myself able to rationalize and accept the TL (after 29 Audis in a row) was when I contented the two similarly and found the Audi required an MSRP bump in excess of $11,000.
 
I live in Cincinnati, a small city or a big town, replete with at least twice-daily traffic clogs on our three Interstates. The chances, my chances, that is, of being able to ever tap the potential of the S4 continue to erode -- although there remain a few chances to make forward progress at speeds in excess of 65MPH. The S4 does rip through the TL's performance envelope, but the TL SH-AWD with the 19" wheel and tire upgrade rips through most other car's performance envelopes -- but even then, there is a decreasing window of opportunity to use its performance.
 
I have not been drinking any Kool-aid -- I am not suggesting you should succumb to the price differential if you are willing and able to pay the price for an S4 Prestige with several options that crank its price up over 5 figures more than the TL.
 
What I am suggesting, or asking, is that you do test drive a TL SH-AWD advance or TL SH-AWD tech with the upgraded wheels and tires and with the super slick 6-speed stick.
 
It is difficult to learn to love, let alone like, the TL's nose and butt, and the interior has "too much Honda" in it -- but damn, the TL SH-AWD Advance can be loaded up with options and leased for less than $550 per month for 36 months. If you have not driven this car equipped thusly, I believe you will be impressed.
 
I do not believe you will think you are driving an S4, I believe you may think of the TL SH-AWD Advance as a "second cousin, twice removed," however.
 
 

#14678 of 16249 Re: ELLPS [sweendogy] by flightnurse

Aug 09, 2012 (10:08 pm)

Replying to: sweendogy (Aug 09, 2012 6:45 pm)
What a horrible article, first off the VW, Toyota manuals are regional, my zip code you can not build a VW Tiguan or Toyota Camry with a manual. I believe this a east coast thing.

#14679 of 16249 Re: ELLPS [sweendogy] by habitat1

Aug 10, 2012 (5:38 am)

Replying to: sweendogy (Aug 09, 2012 7:42 pm)
O.K., I think I figured it out.
 
The "take rate" of 5% for the TL means that 5% of all TL's in 2010 were manual transmissions. The 1 in 6305 odds of being sold means that of ALL cars sold in the US in 2010, 1 in 6,305 was a manual TL.
 
Test: The "take rate" on the Camry was 3%, but the odds were 1 in 1237. Which if you do the math backwards, implies that there were about 8.5 times as many Camry's sold in the US than TL's. According to the site listed below, total TL sales were 34,039 in 2010 and total Camry sales were 327,804. That's 9.5 times as many, but given Motor Trend rounded the "take rate" to the nearest percent, is within the rounding error.
 
sales by model
 
Looking at it another way, total car sales in the US were 11,371,674 in 2010. Odds of one of those cars being a manual TL, 1 in 6305 = 1,804 total. Odds of one of those being a manual Camry, 1 in 1,237 = 9,193 total. Odds of one of those being a manual Cayenne, 1 in 37,361 = 304 total.
 
P.S. I personally test drove 1.3% of all manual Cayennes made in 2010 (1 GTS and 3 V6's). Does that make me an "expert"??
 
Cheers.

Messages Page 1468 of 1625

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