Last post on Dec 06, 2013 at 7:58 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#14662 of 16984 Re: ELLPS [flightnurse]
Aug 09, 2012 (12:08 pm)
I am a BMW fan, as evidenced by our imminent pick up of an X5d in early September at the Performance Delivery Center in Spartanburg. And the 550i is a very nice car in many respects. But it could - and should - be better yet.
The 550i 6MT weighs 4,350+ lbs, goes 0-60 in about 5.0 and gets 15/22 MPG. The CLS550 is 200 lbs lighter, goes 0-60 in 4.4 and is rated 17/25 MPG. The E55 AWD is another 115 lbs less than the CLS.
When I was vaguely contemplating an M5 in 2002, it weighed 4,000 lbs and with a high revving 400hp/369 ft.lb engine, was a few tenths quicker than the current 550i in spite of giving up 80 ft lbs of torque. Forget the handling comparison, the old M5 was much more precise, nimble and tossable than the current 550.
In the ELLPS, we have seen pretty steady improvements in performance, at not a huge increase in price. I would expect BMW to have maintained it's dominance with the 550i, but in my opinion, has been slow to put it on a diet and keep it positioned as the clear enthusiast's choice over some of the LPS competition. At least they do still offer a 6-speed manual. And maybe the added 40 hp in the performance package for 2013 will help. But I'd like to see it tip the scales at 3,950. That's still a half ton more than my beloved 1995 Maxima and only 400 lbs less than a Cayenne SUV. Come on, BMW, start doing those push ups and get rid of the flab.
#14663 of 16984 Re: Price creep [nyccarguy]
Aug 09, 2012 (12:42 pm)
when you say sharpness, explain. _I_ feel that the people might expect more out of the 6 series then what BMW was intending the 6 series to be. Now I can tell you the 1st Gen 6 series had more sporty feel then the current one. Haven't driven the 4 dr 6 series yet, which I'm thinking wont be all that sporty but still competent when pushed, more so then the MB SL.
#14664 of 16984 Re: ELLPS [fedlawman]
Aug 09, 2012 (1:13 pm)
I remember it being a very nice car, but like all Honda's, a little less isolated in cabin noise vs. the competition.
Hey Fed, for me most Honda products are like appliances, they do what they are suppose to and don't leave a last impression. On my last trip arrived into Charotte NC late, got to rental car agency and had a problem, not many cars to choose from, had a couple of Chrysler 200s (no thanks), 2 Altima's, a Camry and an Accord. I had my choice of Tahoe or transverse. I took the Accord (its been a while since I have driven one) it was an EX. Nothing stood out for me, the driving position, the steering feel, the brakes, the handling. When one talks about the TL, I hear people talk about the top of the line model, not the entry level or mid level. The last time I drove a TL was back in 2008 and it was a Type S, nice car, very comfortable seats, but again, not else stood out.
#14665 of 16984 Re: Price creep [nyccarguy]
Aug 09, 2012 (1:24 pm)
I would go with features. I rarely would get to use any of the extra performance, and after driving relatively small engine cars, even a small motor (say, the Infiniti G25) is going to be fast!
so I would give up some motor (your car vs. a 335 say) to get the goodies like moonroof, fancier seats, etx.
Aug 09, 2012 (2:04 pm)
While I agree that for the price of a TL SH-AWD Advance you could get a BASE Audi S4, the S4 requires over $11,000 of options to get to parity with respect to "content."
The TL SH-AWD Advance with the a la carte addition of back-up sensors and splash gaurds is north of $47 or $48K depending on how many a la carte do-dads (which are nice) you check off.
The TL SH-AWD, however, is able to (mostly) keep up with the S4 (you've no doubt read the test report comparing the two cars, which shows them to have remarkably similar performance -- even though the Audi, in the end, does out-perform the Acura -- for $11,000+ more outlay.)
I call the TL SH-AWD Advance, an S4 "lite" or perhaps S4-like. Given a price independant choice, I would still, however, take the S4 without any hesitation.
I like the [Acura's] 19" wheels, blind spot warning, the ventilated seats, the best factory sound system ever and the torque vectoring, etc, etc, etc, all of which jack the cost of an S4 way too close to $60,000.
I went to Acura from a nearly $49K 2009 Audi A4 2.0T Prestige quattro sport -- the last in a long, long line of Audi products (which I dearly loved.) I wanted the performance of the Audi and the content of the Acura -- for UNDER $50K. The Acura is outgunned by the S4 (and yet the TL is NOT shamed by the S4), but [the TL Sh-AWD Advance] is priced like an Audi A4 Premium+ with a couple of options on it. And the Acura is "similar" in performance to the S4, which I would argue is at the top o' the heap of the desirable car list (that can be afforded by mere mortals.)
The TL is ugly, a step up from fugly, but a far cry from the beautiful A4 (IMHO). But once you're behind the wheel of the TL at, ahem, "highway" speeds listening to a great DVD-Audio disk, you quickly forget how the face and butt of the TL look.
Today, the TL remains an interesting proposition -- perhaps when Acura "rationalizes" the entire lineup, improves the styling and so forth, Acura will regain legitimacy in the Premium class. I await 2014 for some sign from above that they have once again found their way.
My hopes are high, but likewise are my doubts that they [Acura] will once again be a legitimate player in the ELLPS and LPS sandbox. The new RDX and ILX indicate they think they can get away with producing "Honda's who know someone" rather than real Premium cars.
And, you know what? If they sell enough of them, it doesn't matter one whit what any of us thinks. With Acura we're kind of at the same place we were (or are) with respect to manual transmissions -- no matter how we cry and whine (here on these boards), manual transmissions are virtually dead because "no one" buys them and it costs a lot to get a car certified for sale here in the US -- so why bother when the customer take up on stick shifts which used to be at 3% continues to fall and fall and fall into the abyss.
We have voted with our dollars -- and here we are.
Drive it like you live.
Aug 09, 2012 (2:23 pm)
Oh, almost forgot. I drove a TL in the $35K price range -- it was almost as bad as a Lexus ES (a Barco Lounger on wheels). The TL that truly feels like an ELLPS is the TL SH-AWD Advance (by a moderate margin, I'd venture.)
Even the Tech version seems tinny, flimsy and not worthy -- of anything but the comment, "nice Honda."
The top of the line must have some secret sauce, a "sport tuned" suspension perhaps(?) -- I had never driven any TL other than a TL SH-AWD Advance until 2 weeks ago. What a disappointment to drive the lesser vehicle. It wallowed (like a pig) and seemed to be soft and squishy, able to overpower its poor tires and wheels even on a cloverleaf exit ramp.
Damn near made me say "who screwed up this car, is this a joke?"
#14668 of 16984 Re: ELLPS [markcincinnati]
Aug 09, 2012 (3:30 pm)
Stick not dead yet
2010 stats- odds of a camry being sold with a manual 1237 to one, total cars Sold 325k in the states.
Outbacks 1300 to one they sold 93k in the states
Acura TL 6305 to one
In the us Acura sold in 2010 total tl's of 34,049, simple math is 5.4 TLs with manuals - (mind you this is one of the sweetest manuals you could ever by for any money)
TL might be a nice car but it's no S4 or even an enthusiasts choice - even with its fancy long name.
#14669 of 16984 Re: ELLPS [markcincinnati]
Aug 09, 2012 (5:07 pm)
I'm not sure what to make of your TL AWD "Advance" accolades. All the "Advance" is, is a Tech with a few extra gadgets. Period. No chassis, brakes or other mechanical differences whatsoever. The Advance comes standard with 19" "all season" performance tires, whereas the TL 6MT can be ordered with either all season or summer performance tires. None of which are as good as you can do from Tire Rack when you replace them.
My 2004 TL 6MT had a number of addiitonal performance features that none of the automatic models offered at the time: Brembo brakes, larger diameter stabilizer bars, "sport tuned" suspension, summer W-rated performance tires. But for the current 2012 model, Acura bagged the Brembo brakes completely (bad move) and made the suspensions equal across all AWD models regardless of base, Tech, Advance or 6MT.
What the TL SH-AWD 6MT offers is arguably one of the better close ratio short throw six speeds to be found in an ELLPS and a not insignificant 110 - 145 pound weight savings over the Tech and Advance automatics. To me, the driving difference between a 6MT and any of the automatic TL's is significant - with much more responsive acceleration and fun to drive factor. If you found there to be a difference between driving a Tech and an Advance in automatic form, I can't imagine where it's coming from. Possibly those ventilated seats, but not the engine, suspension, brakes or anything else that matters.
#14670 of 16984 Re: ELLPS [markcincinnati]
Aug 09, 2012 (5:10 pm)
I agree the TL SH-AWD is a terrific car, and with discounts is also a good buy. My comments about Acura really sum up my overall disappointment with the downward spiral of their entire lineup.
In 2004 they had the RSX which, while arguably not deserving of the Acura badge, was a terrific sports car (especially in "S" trim). Then there was the first gen TSX 6MT. It's ride, handling styling, driveline, etc. had such a synergy that, for me, made it an even match for the BMW 3-series. And the TL in 2004 was lean and mean, with good looks, powerful driveline, and sharp reflexes.
Today, the only Acura worth a second glance is the TL SH-AWD. And even their best has polarizing looks (I'm being polite ) and an unattractive cockpit with too many buttons (my opinion).
For me, even with a bottom-of-the-line A4, you get a handsome, elegant sedan that does no wrong. Now I'll admit that I'm not a bells and whistles kind of guy, so i don't care if my car has back up cameras, Nav, and surround audio. Hell, I even prefer cloth and pleather to genuine cowhide!
Oh well, I'm just one enthusiast with admittedly unconventional tastes. And I've admitted before that I became alienated from this segment several years ago when I discovered the joys of E30's.
Thank you and Habitat for setting the record straight on the SH-AWD - I did do it a disservice by not mentioning it in my initial comment.
#14671 of 16984 Re: ELLPS [sweendogy]
Aug 09, 2012 (5:13 pm)
"2010 stats- odds of a camry being sold with a manual 1237 to one, total cars Sold 325k in the states.
Outbacks 1300 to one they sold 93k in the states
Acura TL 6305 to one "
I have one of those 2010 Camry 6 speed manuals. Love it. People say Camry's are boring, but the 6 speed manual makes it better than ANY automatic, CVT, whatever, in my opinion.