Last post on Dec 06, 2013 at 7:58 AM
You are in the Sedans
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BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan
Aug 08, 2012 (2:04 pm)
The Audi A6 quattro on day one was not FWD biased. It was a 50% 50% set up with a non-reactionary TorSen system. Torque was able to be shifted instantly F or R -ward based on circumstances. The non-reactionary system was unique (probably still is since most of the market doesn't use TorSen) since it was said to "act in real time." All other systems "react" which means there is a slight delay in the transfer of power to the end where it will do the most good.
For years the Audi A6 quattro has been REAR WHEEL biased, but still uses a non-reactionary system.
The TT, on the other hand, did not start out with the TorSen system, rather it started out with the Haldex system (not that there is anything wrong with that), but it is FWD biased and it is a reactionary system, meaning there is some lag whilst the thing figures out there is a need for power at the opposite end and then shifts power appropriately.
The A6, since that is where we started, also can be equipped with a system that is called the sport differential, but you can call it a Torque Vectoring system and you'd be right. Acura's system is SH-AWD but it is, currently, implemented in its cars with SEVERE FWD bias (95%), and it, too, is reactionary. Those of you who have the 6-speed auto 305HP V6 TL SH-AWD can attest to the lag time in these reactionary systems by simply putting the transmission in drive and flooring the accelerator. For an instant (which seems like a second) the steering wheel twitches in your grip while the reaction time passes and the FWD power is shifted aft.
Try an Audi S4 or even an A4 -- both, like the A6, with Rear Biased AWD -- floor them -- there is zero torque steer, since the thing is 60% RWD biased and doesn't have to react, since TorSen differentials "bind in real time."
The new Audi A6 chassis, while still NOSE HEAVY, are much better with respect to weight distribution than they have ever been and somehow Audi has -- perhaps only for a brief 15 minutes of fame, so to speak -- managed to jump to the top of the heap insofar as performance is concerned.
And, despite its high price tag, the new S6 is a price performer when compared to both BMW and Mercedes models that can keep up with it. Yep, Audis have cranked up their prices -- but, if there is such a thing as bang for the buck in the over $60,000 crowd, today that accolade would be earned only by Audi.
I still remember my buddy who purchased a new 530 (RWD only) with a Premium Pack option, period. This was, admittedly 2002. My Audi A6 was a quattro with the sport package, premium wheels, nav and everything you could get on an A6, including premium paint -- oh yea, and it came with a 4.2L V8. My Audi was about $2K less. To even approximate the content (but not the engine) would have put the 530's msrp into orbit.
Where was I? Oh, yea -- A6 quattros have never been fwd biased, and for several years now they have been rwd biased, but with non-reactionary awd (which, admittedly, makes them a bit heavier than the other ELLPS and LPS offerings from Asia, Europe and the US.)
#14648 of 16984 Re: New Header!! [laurasdada]
Aug 08, 2012 (6:18 pm)
Other than being a bit poor in the snow, my '05 TL was just one of my favorite cars ever. Great over-all package and, IIRC, not a penny invested in ~ 85,000 miles other than routine maintenance/wear and a ton of Zaino!!! Every time I see the current-gen TL and "The Beak," I shed another tear (no offense to the current owners, still a fine car and beauty is in the eye...).
Yup, 126K here in my '05 TL and no problems of any significance. While I sometimes wish for other cars, I know that if I ditched the TL I'd miss it. I learned that after ditching my '98 A4.
When I see newer TLs on the road, I have no desire whatsoever for a newer one. When i see my own model on the road, I still think it's one of the sharper looking cars out there. Acura really screwed up with the redesign.
#14649 of 16984 Re: ELLPS [habitat1]
Aug 08, 2012 (6:00 pm)
I am referring strictly to the ELLPS segment - the Audi A4. The A6, M cars, etc. are not ELLPS's.
An A4 Quattro with 6-speed manual starts at $35K. It's a better car than the 328i. It's also the sexiest looking car in this segment (inside and out) with the best combination of performance, elegance, and refinement.
IMO of course...
#14650 of 16984 Re: Price creep [habitat1]
Aug 08, 2012 (7:23 pm)
Was that 34900 price with the 1000 loyalty money or before that.
#14651 of 16984 Re: Price creep [habitat1]
Aug 08, 2012 (8:55 pm)
You must have me mistaken for someone who doesn't have 27 years & 11 months until his mortgage is paid off, doesn't have to redo his kitchen (because the 1985 Formica cabinets are literally falling apart), figure out how he's going to send 3 kids (6, 3 1/2, & 8 months)... Lol!
Sorry if my post was misleading. I test drove the car at one of BMWUSA's drive for team USA last year. I drove the 650i convertible on a hot summer day. I know it's a grand tourer & not a true sports car, but c'mon. It's a sport package equipped BMW, not an MB SL550.
#14652 of 16984 Re: ELLPS [fedlawman]
Aug 09, 2012 (4:52 am)
I respect your opinion, but not sure I would agree with it.
The A4, as with the TL, requires that you go with AWD to avoid their standard FWD setup. That's OK if you are comparing to a 328ix, but if the "P" in ELLPS is important, I still prefer the driving feel and dynamics of a 50/50 balanced RWD sedan. And, if you really want AWD and can get by the exterior looks of the TL, it appears to offer significantly better performance than the A4 Quattro.
Personally, I don't find Audi's exterior design on the A4 to be that much better than the TL. The A5 is seriously great looking, the A7 very good, but the A4/A6 still look slab sided and plain/boxy in my opinion. When I think "sexy", the A5 qualifies, but the A4 needs a lot of work. Even the C-class sedans beat the A4 for exterior looks, IMO.
Disclosure: I haven't driven a new A4 Quattro 6-speed manual. I am basing performance comparison on what is published and my limited experience with an automatic as a loaner. But giving up nearly 100hp to the TL and Acura's AWD system (perhaps) being more advanced from a handling perspective, leads me to believe that the A4 would not do well in a track test between the two. And maybe not against a 328i RWD.
But.....sexy is an "O", so I do respect your "IMO".
#14653 of 16984 Re: Price creep [nyccarguy]
Aug 09, 2012 (4:56 am)
OK, I guess a 911 will have to stand in line behind granite countertops, 529 accounts and a few other priorities. But hang in there, enjoy your kids (they grow up too fast) and let me tempt you again in 2040.
#14654 of 16984 Re: ELLPS [habitat1]
Aug 09, 2012 (8:09 am)
I agree the TL has the better powertrain, but a 6MT costs $44K, and for that much money, there are better choices IMO (S4?).
And the interior and exterior styling of the Audi is far better (again IMO). Better control layout and material quality in the Audi, and the Audi just goes down the road better (quieter cabin with classic German suspension tuning). It's the only $35k car here that makes you feel like you spent $45k when you're driving it.
The AWD TL is the best car Acura sells right now and I agree it's still a contender (I like it better than the G37). But I have to bump Acura down a notch from 6 years ago because as a whole, their lineup isn't very compelling.
Aug 09, 2012 (8:21 am)
In regards to the 550i, yes it is heavy, however, the 550i still does 0-60 in 5 sec, pretty darn quick for a heavy sedan, and with M sport Package handles very well too. Much better then MB E550 (which one comes in all wheel drive.)