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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

16087 messages,  Last post on May 09, 2013 at 9:32 AM

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What is this discussion about? BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan

Messages Page 1465 of 1609

#14639 of 16087 Re: New Header!! [habitat1] by tlong

Aug 07, 2012 (6:24 pm)

Replying to: habitat1 (Aug 07, 2012 1:45 pm)
On the other hand, I'm not sure any ELLPS or even LPS is so enticing to me right now to have me dying to give up my 2004 TL. I could see driving it for the next 5+ years while having another fun car in the garage.
 
Hey habitat, I feel the same way about my '05 TL. At 126K and never having had to fix much of anything on it, I'm easily good for 200K.
 
I'm just not all that impressed with the current crop - BMW getting soft, Audi too expensive, MB IMHO the nicest looking but less sporty, the G is great if you like raw power and growl instead of much refinement.
 
I really do miss my '98 A4, though.

#14640 of 16087 ELLPS by fedlawman

Aug 07, 2012 (7:06 pm)

I think everything evolves in cycles.
 
For a while (2004 through 2006), Acura was arguably #2 in this segment under BMW. Audi was overshadowed by BMW, Infiniti was showing promise as a Japanese BMW alternative, and M-B wasn't an enthusiasts choice. Cadillac was showing promise and Lexus was failing as a Japanese BMW alternative.
 
Today, Audi is tops and Infiniti is arguable #2 being the best bang-for-the-buck choice in the segment. BMW and Acura have both lost their way (though the Roundel still has clout the cars don't deserve right now). Mercedes has improved quality and handling dynamics, and Cadillac has gained credibility with the Gen2 CTS (and the ATS is looking like a real player). Lexus remains content to do the same old thing and sell a ton of ES and RX 350's.
 
6 years from now, I'm sure the picture will be completely different again.

#14641 of 16087 Re: New Header!! [tlong] by ivan_99

Aug 07, 2012 (9:52 pm)

Replying to: tlong (Aug 07, 2012 6:24 pm)
I really do miss my '98 A4, though
 
The new A3 sedan looks like a reincarnation of the 98 A4 with a modern feel.
 
I'm guessing at that point it would replace the A4 in this ELLPS list?

#14642 of 16087 Re: Price creep [nyccarguy] by flightnurse

Aug 07, 2012 (11:15 pm)

Replying to: nyccarguy (Aug 07, 2012 7:00 am)
Bradd the 6 series is not really a sports car, it is really a grand touring, which is not a bad thing really.
 
The new 5 series is OK, as I stated, if I was to get a 5 series it would be a 550i with the M sport package, which really makes it a M5 light. Yes, driving one is a lesson in control, as it is easy to drive it fast without knowing it.
 
The 1 series will become the 2 series starting in 2014 and BMW will be bring out a series of cars sort of like the Audi "S" cars, I have read that in 2014 the 235i will have a M performance package, sort of like what BMW did with the 3 series with the ZHP package. This is why it is hard for me to get sell my 330i, it was/is a true drivers car, something that the current 3 series is not. The M235i will get the 315hp turbo six, which would make me want to sell my 330i, it will be a drivers car. This is something that Infiniti hasn't done with the G, its not a drivers car. The M235i will be less then what i paid for my 330i and give me more performance, so it is a win win...

#14643 of 16087 Re: Price creep [m6user] - It was worse back then... [habitat1] [dino001] [habitat1] [dino001] [habitat1] [billyperksii] [habitat1] [billyperksii] by flightnurse

Aug 07, 2012 (11:23 pm)

Replying to: billyperksii (Aug 07, 2012 9:50 am)
Bill you looking at a new 550 or used ? The current 550i is by far the best 5 series one can by, the Single turbo 6 in the 535 doesn't have the feel that the twin turbo 6 had, doesn't feel as sporty. The 550 is a fright train, I would take the 550 over the M5 any day.

#14644 of 16087 Re: ELLPS [fedlawman] by habitat1

Aug 08, 2012 (6:10 am)

Replying to: fedlawman (Aug 07, 2012 7:06 pm)
Fedlawman - what's your basis for saying Audi is #1 and Infiniti is #2 in this segment?
 
Audi makes some very nice cars, but for all of the accolades the A6 gets, I don't think of it as an enthusiasts choice. No manual transmission, very heavy, an AWD system that is FWD biased, etc. It performs quite well, in spite of all of that, but I still can't think of it as a true drivers car. And in the performance line of the S4, S5, S6 cars, I would still never put them in the enthusiast's league of the M3 or M5. More like AMG-lite.
 
If you are saying that Audi is #1 because they are the closest to "all things for all people", I'd probably agree. But they don't get my own blood boiling to dump my Acura TL and buy one tomorrow.
 
On another matter, I think BMW needs to steal some Porsche engineers and put their vehicles on a big diet. The 550i weighs damn near the same as a Porsche Cayenne SUV. Which, by the way, dropped 400 lbs in its redesign and the new 911 and Boxster have also lost a few pounds in the Porsche spa. Not sure why BMW, "the ultimate driving machine" has been so slow to use more aluminum and charge its engineers to do more with less (weight).

#14645 of 16087 Re: New Header!! [tlong] by laurasdada

Aug 08, 2012 (1:29 pm)

Replying to: tlong (Aug 07, 2012 6:24 pm)
Man, you TL guys got me misting up here...
 
Other than being a bit poor in the snow, my '05 TL was just one of my favorite cars ever. Great over-all package and, IIRC, not a penny invested in ~ 85,000 miles other than routine maintenance/wear and a ton of Zaino!!! Every time I see the current-gen TL and "The Beak," I shed another tear (no offense to the current owners, still a fine car and beauty is in the eye...).
 
Why, oh why, did I trade the TL? Oh, yeah. Mid-life crisis...

#14646 of 16087 Re: ELLPS [habitat1] by markcincinnati

Aug 08, 2012 (3:04 pm)

Replying to: habitat1 (Aug 08, 2012 6:10 am)
The Audi A6 quattro on day one was not FWD biased. It was a 50% 50% set up with a non-reactionary TorSen system. Torque was able to be shifted instantly F or R -ward based on circumstances. The non-reactionary system was unique (probably still is since most of the market doesn't use TorSen) since it was said to "act in real time." All other systems "react" which means there is a slight delay in the transfer of power to the end where it will do the most good.
 
For years the Audi A6 quattro has been REAR WHEEL biased, but still uses a non-reactionary system.
 
The TT, on the other hand, did not start out with the TorSen system, rather it started out with the Haldex system (not that there is anything wrong with that), but it is FWD biased and it is a reactionary system, meaning there is some lag whilst the thing figures out there is a need for power at the opposite end and then shifts power appropriately.
 
The A6, since that is where we started, also can be equipped with a system that is called the sport differential, but you can call it a Torque Vectoring system and you'd be right. Acura's system is SH-AWD but it is, currently, implemented in its cars with SEVERE FWD bias (95%), and it, too, is reactionary. Those of you who have the 6-speed auto 305HP V6 TL SH-AWD can attest to the lag time in these reactionary systems by simply putting the transmission in drive and flooring the accelerator. For an instant (which seems like a second) the steering wheel twitches in your grip while the reaction time passes and the FWD power is shifted aft.
 
Try an Audi S4 or even an A4 -- both, like the A6, with Rear Biased AWD -- floor them -- there is zero torque steer, since the thing is 60% RWD biased and doesn't have to react, since TorSen differentials "bind in real time."
 
The new Audi A6 chassis, while still NOSE HEAVY, are much better with respect to weight distribution than they have ever been and somehow Audi has -- perhaps only for a brief 15 minutes of fame, so to speak -- managed to jump to the top of the heap insofar as performance is concerned.
 
And, despite its high price tag, the new S6 is a price performer when compared to both BMW and Mercedes models that can keep up with it. Yep, Audis have cranked up their prices -- but, if there is such a thing as bang for the buck in the over $60,000 crowd, today that accolade would be earned only by Audi.
 
I still remember my buddy who purchased a new 530 (RWD only) with a Premium Pack option, period. This was, admittedly 2002. My Audi A6 was a quattro with the sport package, premium wheels, nav and everything you could get on an A6, including premium paint -- oh yea, and it came with a 4.2L V8. My Audi was about $2K less. To even approximate the content (but not the engine) would have put the 530's msrp into orbit.
 
Where was I? Oh, yea -- A6 quattros have never been fwd biased, and for several years now they have been rwd biased, but with non-reactionary awd (which, admittedly, makes them a bit heavier than the other ELLPS and LPS offerings from Asia, Europe and the US.)
 
 

#14647 of 16087 What about a little vitamin d?] [flightnurse] by sweendogy

Aug 08, 2012 (5:34 pm)

Replying to: flightnurse (Aug 07, 2012 11:23 pm)
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2013-bmw-m550d-xdrive-first-drive-review
 
Love the looks

#14648 of 16087 Re: New Header!! [laurasdada] by tlong

Aug 08, 2012 (7:18 pm)

Replying to: laurasdada (Aug 08, 2012 1:29 pm)
Other than being a bit poor in the snow, my '05 TL was just one of my favorite cars ever. Great over-all package and, IIRC, not a penny invested in ~ 85,000 miles other than routine maintenance/wear and a ton of Zaino!!! Every time I see the current-gen TL and "The Beak," I shed another tear (no offense to the current owners, still a fine car and beauty is in the eye...).
 
Yup, 126K here in my '05 TL and no problems of any significance. While I sometimes wish for other cars, I know that if I ditched the TL I'd miss it. I learned that after ditching my '98 A4.
 
When I see newer TLs on the road, I have no desire whatsoever for a newer one. When i see my own model on the road, I still think it's one of the sharper looking cars out there. Acura really screwed up with the redesign.

Messages Page 1465 of 1609

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