Last post on Jun 18, 2013 at 7:02 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#14612 of 16251 Re: Price creep [habitat1]
Aug 05, 2012 (8:04 pm)
Hey habitat1. Good to see you back on the forum here. Saw on another thread that you no longer have your beloved 911 C2 Cab. My automotive condolences to you.
I've never driven a TL SH-AWD, but know its got some chops from what I've read. What'd you think of the brakes compared to the BMW? I don't track or race my car, just looking for a little fun on my 6 day/week commute like I did with my 2001 Prelude Type SH for the 1st 9 years of its life. I wasn't "getting it" from the 2010 TSX I inherited from my wife (lifeless electric power steering, crummy brakes). I love my 2011 328xi. I just don't know if the new F30 328xi will be worth it so sparsely equipped as I "built" last night. Especially when a TL SH-AWD Tech comes loaded for a similar sticker. I've still got 2 years of research to decide about my next purchase.
#14613 of 16251 Re: Price creep [m6user] - It was worse back then... [habitat1] [dino001]
Aug 05, 2012 (8:20 pm)
You make a good point. Adding incremental costs for safety requirements will increase the cost of lower price cars by a higher percentage than expensive cars.
But I still think the biggest difference over the past 2-3 decades in what we now label the ELPPS segment is that BMW and Mercedes are now considered "affordable" by a much larger percentage of the population because of their conscious decision to employ a product mix and pricing strategy that competes for this market. Perhaps partly in response or retaliation for Lexus, Infiniti and Acura moving into their previously unchallenged luxury territory.
Anecdotal example: Back in about 1969, I had a friend whose aunt drove a new Mercedes. She would pick us up from grade school 2-3 days a week. People used to stop and stare at the car - and be even more shocked when they saw a woman driving it. At one point, she was interviewed by the local newspaper and asked how it felt to be the only verified single female that owned a Mercedes in a city of 100,000. She worked for Navy Intelligence, spent a lot of time in Europe and got the Mercedes through a diplomatic/military purchase program at a huge discount, or so she said.
Today, I'd make a bet that if I drove 15 miles to the nearest Wal Mart, I'd find at least a dozen Mercedes and BMW's in the lot. Hell, I think you can buy a Mercedes at Costco.
#14614 of 16251 Re: Price creep [nyccarguy]
Aug 05, 2012 (8:40 pm)
Thanks, but no condolences needed. I had a good 5 1/2 years and 30k miles with the 911 and my daughters couldn't fit in the back seat anymore. But if the bank account recovers in time from our upcoming X5 Diesel purchase, I could possibly see a new Cayman in my garage sometime next spring.
Regarding the TL vs. BMW, my own 2004 TL 6-speed has Brembo brakes standard. I believe the 2012 TL SH-AWD 6-speed manual does as well. In my car, they are great, and way, way better than the crappy brakes on our MDX or the automatic TL's I was given as service loaners. My 2004 is FWD, so it has all of those performance pitfalls, but is still a reasonably fun car.
I would never seriously consider or recommend an automatic or FWD TL over a BMW. The 6-speed manual TL-SHAWD might be worth a test drive for you to make the call yourself. Interestingly, I was NOT very favorably impressed with 2011/2012 535i 6-speed manuals. I wasn't seriously in the market, but when we were shopping for the X5, was being tempted by some great deals. But after a few test drives, I concluded that the new 5 series felt heavy and a bit dull compared to the older models or the (outgoing) 3 series.
#14615 of 16251 Re: Price creep [m6user] - It was worse back then... [habitat1]
Aug 05, 2012 (10:26 pm)
The general inflation rate will of course affect any price increases in addition to governmental regualtions. I believe the period you mentioned, 1985 to 1995 has substantially more inflation than the period I tracked, 2002/3 to 2012/13.
Mortgage rates were in the 9-10% range back in the late eighties. I remember refinancing in 1992 to 7.5%, down from 9.5%. If you consider the "hyper" inflation of the late 70s and early 80s(I can actually remember getting pay raises of over 10% several of those years) car prices may have been catching up somewhat. I believe they lag inflation by a couple of years as manufactures try to hold the line on prices until profit pressures become too great to resist.
#14616 of 16251 Re: Price creep [m6user] - It was worse back then... [habitat1] [dino001] [habitat1]
Aug 06, 2012 (6:19 am)
This is good story. However, in 1969 Mercedes was only making cars that were market positioned equivalent of today's S-class and top of E-class. Model 190 (predecessor of C-class) was introduces somewhere in late 70s or early 80s, don't know exact dates. The ELLPS simply did not exist back then. There was a small BMW and Europe has always had cars like those, but the concept was pretty much unknown in the US. So the bridge was gapped from both sides (cheap cars becoming not so cheap and expensive brands introducing less expensive models)
#14617 of 16251 Re: Price creep [m6user] - It was worse back then... [habitat1] [dino001] [habitat1] [dino001]
Aug 06, 2012 (6:56 am)
You are exactly right - and that's the essence of my point. An ELLPS segment that has BMW and Mercedes competing against Japanese and even American cars for the same buyer didn't really exist until about 1995 or later. Prior to that, it was easy. We all knew our place in car society. And now Hyundai is on TV with ads comparing their Genesis to a Panamera S?? Holy cow.
#14619 of 16251 Re: Data point.. [ivan_99]
Aug 06, 2012 (8:13 am)
The President (and the previous one as well) seem to disagree (or not care)...
#14620 of 16251 Re: Price creep [m6user] - It was worse back then... [habitat1] [dino001] [habitat1] [dino001]
Aug 06, 2012 (9:11 am)
The 190E came state side in 1985.
I remember in 1993 looking at the E320 Convertible and thinking 80K is a lot of money.... Today you can get a E350 convertible for the came amount of money.
Today an entry level C250 sedan is 35K (base) and will balloon to 43K with a couple of options. My 1987 E190 2.3-16 sportline was $36K new.
Just interesting to see how some cars have faired priced wise over the years.
#14621 of 16251 Re: Price creep [m6user] - It was worse back then... [habitat1] [dino001] [habitat1] [dino001] [habitat1]
Aug 06, 2012 (10:10 am)
Hey look who is back- welcome back buddy, remember those battle we had with my 2003 TL Type S? Well now I have the 2009 SH-AWD.
The new car itch is setting in and its going after the 550 XI but I think I will stick with the TL a couple more years.