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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

16249 messages,  Last post on Jun 17, 2013 at 9:27 AM

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What is this discussion about? BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan

Messages Page 1459 of 1625

#14581 of 16249 Re: Acura TL vs Acura TL [ivan_99] by m6user

Aug 02, 2012 (3:23 pm)

Replying to: ivan_99 (Aug 02, 2012 2:35 pm)
Yes, I would say so. $9k is about a 33% increase in price. A 2002 Toyota Camry LE was $19500. A 2012 Camry LE is $23400. About a 20% increase. The 2003 Audi A4 Quattro was $27500 and the 2013 version is $33400, or about a 21% increase. If one could consider the Camry as a "commodity" and use that as a baseline, it would seem BMW ELLPS has creeped substantially more than both the baseline and one of it's main competitors. And both the Camry and the Audi increased below the percentage you used for inflation.

#14582 of 16249 The g by sweendogy

Aug 02, 2012 (6:40 pm)

Replying to: m6user (Aug 02, 2012 3:23 pm)
Consumer reports. "Sports sedans With its inviting blend of luxury and driving fun, the G37 stands out from the crowd. Its agile handling, blistering acceleration, and comfortable, well-crafted interior make it one of our highest-scoring sedans and have earned the G a spot on this list for the sixth straight year. This sports sedan feels at home whether tackling a twisty back road or cruising on the highway. A snug cabin and small trunk are the only notable weaknesses. The less expensive G25 model isn’t as quick, but it shares much of the G37’s inviting package and provides 3 more mpg. Both are available with rear- or all-wheel drive."
 
6 years in a row, price hasn't move much - best car for thr money, and prob the new class of the class- $$ has to be a factor here

#14583 of 16249 Re: Acura TL vs Acura TL [markcincinnati] by fedlawman

Aug 02, 2012 (7:04 pm)

Replying to: markcincinnati (Aug 02, 2012 1:31 pm)
You're right Mark, I hadn't really thought about that. I suppose it's even worse up the ladder because the price gap between an "entry-level" 7-Series and loaded 7-Series is so huge...

#14584 of 16249 Re: Acura TL vs Acura TL [flightnurse] by m6user

Aug 02, 2012 (7:07 pm)

Replying to: flightnurse (Aug 02, 2012 9:54 am)
"The G25 looks JUST like a G37, the leather might not be as nice, but the instrument panel, seats, body all look like the big brother, but the price is not. Not too sure why it never caught on, a nice way to get into the ELLPS... "
 
The leather in the G25 is the same leather as in the G37. The only difference between the two is the smaller engine and the unavailability of several options in the G25 like no NAV, etc. The reason it didn't sell IMO is the same reasons I was disappointed in it.
 
1. Couldn't get NAV or a few other bells and whistles as options even.
2. For 100 less horses, I believe people thought you should get a lot better mpg on regular gas too.
3. It was only priced about $3000 less than the G37 and they are always discounting the G37 pretty heavy and wouldn't go down that far on the G25. Net effect....they were too close in price for such a drastic difference in performance.

#14585 of 16249 Acura, Prices, Infiniti... by nyccarguy

Aug 02, 2012 (9:52 pm)

Wow, you guys have been quite chatty since I last checked in. I'm back in CT after driving 1700 miles through 10 states.
 
I agree with you guys that Acura has completely LOST ITS WAY. The TL SH-AWD is the exception here. The Acura brakes stink. Our government should mandate that BMW supply brakes to every car on the road.
 
Prices on these cars have crept up over the years. As you all know, my 2011 328xi is leased (I know its more expensive to lease, but its going to be a damn fun 30 months). $50K for a 4 cyl 3 series is a big pill to swallow. Like many of you have said, $50K is NOT entry level. In my book anyway. I'm quite certain that if I do want to continue to drive sedans in this category when the lease is up on my 3er in 2 years, I'm going to have to go the CPO route. Otherwise I'll have to look at a car that isn't so performance oriented to suite my commuting needs.

#14586 of 16249 Re: Acura, Prices, Infiniti... [nyccarguy] by plekto

Aug 02, 2012 (11:27 pm)

Replying to: nyccarguy (Aug 02, 2012 9:52 pm)
The thing with Honda and Toyota is that that have been trying to follow Cadillac and Mercedes. Now, this isn't a *bad* thing. The C class is a superb car to get around town in in style without breaking the bank. GM makes superb big boats that float down the road and are kind on your old back.
 
There's a reason the Lexus ES is called a "Japanese Buick". Acura rightly figured that since it couldn't make a better car than the 3 series, they should just go where the money is - in big comfy cars. Fair enough. The TL is a very nice car inside and is great to just drive around town and get stuck in traffic in
 
But Toyota and Honda are a lot like GM in that there's a hard division between sports and luxury, with only one or two vehicles that bridge that gap. (possibly the Lexus IS and the CTS, Honda has nothing any more since they dropped the RSX)

#14587 of 16249 Price creep by dino001

Aug 03, 2012 (5:29 am)

I kind started it, but now I have to add one small contradiction to what was said: sure cars went up 20-30% over ten years. This is much more than average wage increase (except perhaps the top earners, who seem to enjoy way better growth than rest of us). In those terms, cars should not cost more than 10-15%. Part of the rest could be explained by commodity inflation outpacing the wage inflation, especially in late '00s and even now it is not all gone (I just can't imagine how much box of corn flakes will cost next year). There was a huge dollar debasement in late '00s, somewhat recovering now, but it's a fact (if anybody cares to remember, 1 Euro was about 90 US cents in early 2000s). All of those things contributed to price increases, and German brands would probably have crept even more if not for economic downturn and loss of the marginal customer (one that puts your sales target over the guided targets).
 
However, those cars also offer more, MUCH more for that money. More metal (not always a good thing, but at least in absolute terms - it is more), more features, better safety, better fuel economy WITH more power, etc. Some was mandated (tire pressure monitors, traction control systems, gas mileage improvements), some was market-driven (consumer electronics, size). I know some people would actually prefer 2003 325i over 2012 328i, but in all objective metrics, 2012 model is simply a better machine. Same goes for the named Toyotas, Audis and all the rest. If we factor those improvements, the prices are probably not as outrageously higher. The models tend to drift up in size and content over the years and create room for new line (3-series vs. 1-series), so after about three generations it is fair to start making those comparisons (both in term of price and content) with models from other shelf. I think in 10 years, ELLPS will include all those models dismissed today as "not L enough" or "not P enough" and current 3-series/C-class will be favorite "family upscale sedans".

#14588 of 16249 Re: Price creep [dino001] by robr2

Aug 03, 2012 (6:26 am)

Replying to: dino001 (Aug 03, 2012 5:29 am)
I agree about the reason for the price creep but I also see people adapting to that by lowering their standards when it comes to to their next car. To keep it simple, somebody who used to drive an Accord EX-L will drop down to an EX and then perhaps to an LX in the course of a few years as their income hasn't kept up with the price of automobiles - or anything else as well.
 
I know someone who in the course of 5 cars and 15 years who has gone from a 300M to Lancer with a gradual step down over the years in order to keep the payment in his comfort zone.

#14589 of 16249 Re: Acura TL vs Acura TL [fedlawman] by flightnurse

Aug 03, 2012 (8:02 am)

Replying to: fedlawman (Aug 02, 2012 7:04 pm)
Hey Fed if you want to cross shop, the MB S class starts at 94K this is for the S350 Diesel which is their entry level flagship. Kinda steep but then again, MB sells every single S class they import. I just wasn't aware the S class had gotten up that high over the 7 series and A8.

#14590 of 16249 Re: Acura TL vs Acura TL [m6user] by flightnurse

Aug 03, 2012 (8:08 am)

Replying to: m6user (Aug 02, 2012 7:07 pm)
3. It was only priced about $3000 less than the G37 and they are always discounting the G37 pretty heavy and wouldn't go down that far on the G25. Net effect....they were too close in price for such a drastic difference in performance.
 
I'm thinking this is the real issue, I went over to the G37 leasing questions forum, and was shocked at how much Infiniti is discounting the cars. Also the odd length of the leases, 18 months? Many people are getting leases on a G37S 6 spd MT for just fee's and $299/m Other have been able to get a G37 Journey + Premium package, drive off are fee's and $405/m (this is with tax) for 36 months. Infiniti is giving some incredible buy rates to get these prices..
 
One can see why the G25 did not sell. But I did read that it will be coming back with a turbo 4, and more equipment for the same price. Should be interesting.

Messages Page 1459 of 1625

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