Last post on Dec 12, 2013 at 7:09 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#14578 of 16985 Re: Acura TL vs Acura TL [fedlawman]
Aug 02, 2012 (12:31 pm)
Point well taken, but I will then ask, at what price point, these days are there NOT "a group of relatively ubiquitous cars" from which one may choose?
$50,000? $60,000 even $70,000? It seems to me that even at the higher price points there are several offerings that, for many, only differ in styling -- and sometimes even then the styling isn't all that much of a differentiator.
Here's the thing that I noticed the last time I was visiting our BMW dealer -- there are BMW 7 series cars that shoot way the hell past $100K, yet they are only slightly differentiated from the "cheap ones."
There was a high zoot A8 at the Audi dealer, and there was also an S8 -- now, I would've taken the S8 (if I were just thinking about the car itself); but the A8L W12 with a bunch of "I can't believe the thing has a walk in cooler in the back seat" type options, was way more expensive. Then of course there was the cheapie plain ol' A8 SWB version. They were all very, er, ubiquitous."
Now I used to think I was pretty astute at discerning what I was looking at -- but today I saw a new Passat SEL that must've had some optional glitzy wheels and a beige leather interior (I assume it was real cow, that is). I thought, for a full second, "Nice Audi."
I doubt the Passat was more than $35K -- but it LOOKED expensive (assuming you think Audi's look expensive.)
Nothing about a TSX looks expensive to me -- but what the hell do I know, I bought a 2012 Acura TL (not to imply I think the TL looks expensive, but from the outside it looks less like a Honda than the TSX.)
What do I know?
Drive it like you live.
#14579 of 16985 Re: Acura TL vs Acura TL [ivan_99]
Aug 02, 2012 (1:27 pm)
No, the starting price on a BMW RWD 325 in 2003 was about $27k and the starting price of the 2013 BMW RWD 328 is about $36k. That is approx $9000 difference and would constitute creep as they say.
#14580 of 16985 Re: Acura TL vs Acura TL [m6user]
Aug 02, 2012 (1:35 pm)
$27k in 2003 is $33.6k in 2012...still creeping a bit I suppose
#14581 of 16985 Re: Acura TL vs Acura TL [ivan_99]
Aug 02, 2012 (2:23 pm)
Yes, I would say so. $9k is about a 33% increase in price. A 2002 Toyota Camry LE was $19500. A 2012 Camry LE is $23400. About a 20% increase. The 2003 Audi A4 Quattro was $27500 and the 2013 version is $33400, or about a 21% increase. If one could consider the Camry as a "commodity" and use that as a baseline, it would seem BMW ELLPS has creeped substantially more than both the baseline and one of it's main competitors. And both the Camry and the Audi increased below the percentage you used for inflation.
Aug 02, 2012 (5:40 pm)
Consumer reports. "Sports sedans With its inviting blend of luxury and driving fun, the G37 stands out from the crowd. Its agile handling, blistering acceleration, and comfortable, well-crafted interior make it one of our highest-scoring sedans and have earned the G a spot on this list for the sixth straight year. This sports sedan feels at home whether tackling a twisty back road or cruising on the highway. A snug cabin and small trunk are the only notable weaknesses. The less expensive G25 model isnít as quick, but it shares much of the G37ís inviting package and provides 3 more mpg. Both are available with rear- or all-wheel drive."
6 years in a row, price hasn't move much - best car for thr money, and prob the new class of the class- $$ has to be a factor here
#14583 of 16985 Re: Acura TL vs Acura TL [markcincinnati]
Aug 02, 2012 (6:04 pm)
You're right Mark, I hadn't really thought about that. I suppose it's even worse up the ladder because the price gap between an "entry-level" 7-Series and loaded 7-Series is so huge...
#14584 of 16985 Re: Acura TL vs Acura TL [flightnurse]
Aug 02, 2012 (6:07 pm)
"The G25 looks JUST like a G37, the leather might not be as nice, but the instrument panel, seats, body all look like the big brother, but the price is not. Not too sure why it never caught on, a nice way to get into the ELLPS... "
The leather in the G25 is the same leather as in the G37. The only difference between the two is the smaller engine and the unavailability of several options in the G25 like no NAV, etc. The reason it didn't sell IMO is the same reasons I was disappointed in it.
1. Couldn't get NAV or a few other bells and whistles as options even.
2. For 100 less horses, I believe people thought you should get a lot better mpg on regular gas too.
3. It was only priced about $3000 less than the G37 and they are always discounting the G37 pretty heavy and wouldn't go down that far on the G25. Net effect....they were too close in price for such a drastic difference in performance.
#14585 of 16985 Acura, Prices, Infiniti...
Aug 02, 2012 (8:52 pm)
Wow, you guys have been quite chatty since I last checked in. I'm back in CT after driving 1700 miles through 10 states.
I agree with you guys that Acura has completely LOST ITS WAY. The TL SH-AWD is the exception here. The Acura brakes stink. Our government should mandate that BMW supply brakes to every car on the road.
Prices on these cars have crept up over the years. As you all know, my 2011 328xi is leased (I know its more expensive to lease, but its going to be a damn fun 30 months). $50K for a 4 cyl 3 series is a big pill to swallow. Like many of you have said, $50K is NOT entry level. In my book anyway. I'm quite certain that if I do want to continue to drive sedans in this category when the lease is up on my 3er in 2 years, I'm going to have to go the CPO route. Otherwise I'll have to look at a car that isn't so performance oriented to suite my commuting needs.
#14586 of 16985 Re: Acura, Prices, Infiniti... [nyccarguy]
Aug 02, 2012 (10:27 pm)
The thing with Honda and Toyota is that that have been trying to follow Cadillac and Mercedes. Now, this isn't a *bad* thing. The C class is a superb car to get around town in in style without breaking the bank. GM makes superb big boats that float down the road and are kind on your old back.
There's a reason the Lexus ES is called a "Japanese Buick". Acura rightly figured that since it couldn't make a better car than the 3 series, they should just go where the money is - in big comfy cars. Fair enough. The TL is a very nice car inside and is great to just drive around town and get stuck in traffic in
But Toyota and Honda are a lot like GM in that there's a hard division between sports and luxury, with only one or two vehicles that bridge that gap. (possibly the Lexus IS and the CTS, Honda has nothing any more since they dropped the RSX)
Aug 03, 2012 (4:29 am)
I kind started it, but now I have to add one small contradiction to what was said: sure cars went up 20-30% over ten years. This is much more than average wage increase (except perhaps the top earners, who seem to enjoy way better growth than rest of us). In those terms, cars should not cost more than 10-15%. Part of the rest could be explained by commodity inflation outpacing the wage inflation, especially in late '00s and even now it is not all gone (I just can't imagine how much box of corn flakes will cost next year). There was a huge dollar debasement in late '00s, somewhat recovering now, but it's a fact (if anybody cares to remember, 1 Euro was about 90 US cents in early 2000s). All of those things contributed to price increases, and German brands would probably have crept even more if not for economic downturn and loss of the marginal customer (one that puts your sales target over the guided targets).
However, those cars also offer more, MUCH more for that money. More metal (not always a good thing, but at least in absolute terms - it is more), more features, better safety, better fuel economy WITH more power, etc. Some was mandated (tire pressure monitors, traction control systems, gas mileage improvements), some was market-driven (consumer electronics, size). I know some people would actually prefer 2003 325i over 2012 328i, but in all objective metrics, 2012 model is simply a better machine. Same goes for the named Toyotas, Audis and all the rest. If we factor those improvements, the prices are probably not as outrageously higher. The models tend to drift up in size and content over the years and create room for new line (3-series vs. 1-series), so after about three generations it is fair to start making those comparisons (both in term of price and content) with models from other shelf. I think in 10 years, ELLPS will include all those models dismissed today as "not L enough" or "not P enough" and current 3-series/C-class will be favorite "family upscale sedans".