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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

16087 messages,  Last post on May 09, 2013 at 9:32 AM

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What is this discussion about? BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan

Messages Page 1451 of 1610

#14493 of 16087 Re: FWD ATS ? Re: Hello from America [flightnurse] by sweendogy

Jul 26, 2012 (8:35 pm)

Replying to: flightnurse (Jul 26, 2012 7:54 pm)
I agree real world driving is something you have to consider- but I would take car and driver, consumer reports and top gear over your comments from some rental car you picked up in Ohio, and drove for 2 days. It's your opinion and it's worth something to you, not everyone.
 
While I agree the vett interior stinks, but like you stated the power train is terrific (easy to drift I guess you could add, and did ), but it's still the best seller in the segment, why ? 430 hp for 50k. I have also stated in the past that I think the pre2011 3 series has a rather boring interior, and it's laughable they Charge you for paint and leather (this is a lux car right), Bluetooth and I have also stated for 35-40-50k you can get more powerful sedan for what BMW charges.
 
Marginal success for the cts- past 2 years they have outsold the TL, 2008 was mot car of year And was 10 best for 2008 and 09, And 2010 and in 2010 MT said it maybe the best American car ever made.
 
Sts don't know it- not sure it's in this class

#14494 of 16087 Re: FWD ATS ? Re: Hello from America [sweendogy] by flightnurse

Jul 26, 2012 (11:06 pm)

Replying to: sweendogy (Jul 26, 2012 8:35 pm)
The CTS has been out now for 10 years and just now is selling well... TL been out since 1996 and have sold well from day one. In fact it was second best selling car in it's class behind BWM 3 series.
 
The Vette is a car everybody wish's they could own, it is an American Icon, however, some of us have owned a vette and had a very poor experience with it. I believe the vette sells well, but it doesn't have the highest return customer based as other sports car do, and why is that? I believe Porsche has the highest repeat customer base, why is that? Better built cars? Better driving satisfaction? Can't be the price as the Porsche's prices keep going up.. Something keeps customers coming back to the brand.
 
Again the question is, will the new ATS and XTS change peoples perception about GM and Caddy to keep people coming back to the brand.

#14495 of 16087 'Vette - return buyers by rayainsw

Jul 27, 2012 (4:22 am)

Replying to: flightnurse (Jul 26, 2012 11:06 pm)
FWIW - As someone who did drive a [ 2007 ] Corvette for over 30,000 miles, I will say this:
 
I long wanted a top tier sports car. The planets aligned in late 2006, and I bought the Corvette. Although I did enjoy most every mile I drove it, I am not a typical Corvette owner in several respects – and once I had my ‘fix’, I was content to move on.
 
I knew what I was buying. The interior worked well for me. The seats in the 3LT I found quite comfortable and supportive, in street driving. And nothing ever buzzed or rattled or came adrift.
 
- Ray
Satisfied with the Corvette driving experience . . .
And open to an ELLPS with a version of a Corvette drivetrain . . .

#14496 of 16087 Re: FWD ATS ? Re: Hello from America [flightnurse] by sweendogy

Jul 27, 2012 (5:07 am)

Replying to: flightnurse (Jul 26, 2012 11:06 pm)
TL has sold well from day one, not exactly check the sales numbers from 2007 on. It hasn't been number 2 in a long time. Cts, My point is it saved the brand and was and is a success.
 
Porsche comments - they build nice cars agree, still vette sells more cars and has been the top pick for years because of price and value.
 
Ats Is the car That they hope will build on cts - cant comment on xts because like the sts above its off topic and don't care about limos.

#14497 of 16087 Re: 'Vette - return buyers [rayainsw] by graphicguy

Jul 27, 2012 (5:26 am)

Replying to: rayainsw (Jul 27, 2012 4:22 am)
ray....interesting to note your experiences...especially with the 'vette. That's a car that I always said (well, since I was 16), I want to own one. I had friends buy them. I rode in them. I even had the opportunity to drive a Lingenfelter Corvette. Once I did, the allure diminished as I asked myself...."how much will I really drive this?"
 
With a (then) wife, and a kid, the Corvette "jones" went away. Once the wife was gone, and the kid grew up, my tastes changed (to luxury sports sedans). I don't fall in love with my cars like others do. I know some Corvette aficionados who are die hard. I know many more who got their fix, and like you, let it go.
 
I feel fortunate that I'm able to own some awfully fine cars...BMWs, Audis, Acuras, go fast Mustangs, etc. Had one Cadillac. Will never own another (a story for another time).
 
FN...once the hype machine finishes on the ATS, we'll see how it shakes out. You're right, the CTS just started to be competitive with its last iteration. Even there, the competition has passed it by.
 
The ATS may be a competitor to the 328i, or A4. But, how long will that last?
 
The trade rags do a little track testing. Run around with a car for a few days, maybe a week. The most they drive a car is their "long term" fleet. Even there, that's only for a year, on average. And, not one person drives it for a long period of time.
 
So, renting a car is a good way for someone to get a feel for it. I know I've been able to rent a Benz, a Caddy, a Volvo (surprisingly good), and some others. I actually was able to get a lengthy test drive (longer than a day) on a BMW, Audi S4 and a Cadillac CTS coupe (which gave me the opportunity to cross it off my list). You come to some very realistic conclusions that the trade rags don't pay much attention to driving and using them as you would on a daily basis.

#14498 of 16087 Re: 'Vette - return buyers [graphicguy] by rayainsw

Jul 27, 2012 (5:46 am)

Replying to: graphicguy (Jul 27, 2012 5:26 am)
'..the allure diminished as I asked myself...."how much will I really drive this?"
 
One way in which I am different from most Corvette drivers is that I only have 1 car [ at a time ] and though I was able to do everything necessary with the 'Vette, most people have another vehicle [ or 3 ] to use for things like trips to Home Depot, etc.
 
I drive a BMW now, partly because in some ways it is less 'extreme' than the Corvette. A plus as a 'fun only' car, for many. A minus as a utilitarian vehicle.
 
YMMV.
- Ray
Watching with interest the ELLPS landscape ...

#14499 of 16087 Re: FWD ATS ? Re: Hello from America [sweendogy] by stickguy

Jul 27, 2012 (5:59 am)

Replying to: sweendogy (Jul 27, 2012 5:07 am)
the first generation TL was actually kind of a dog sales wise. Also very expensive. Once they redesigned it for 1999, that is when it became a hot seller.

#14500 of 16087 Re: 'Vette - return buyers [graphicguy] by m6user

Jul 27, 2012 (8:37 am)

Replying to: graphicguy (Jul 27, 2012 5:26 am)
"The trade rags do a little track testing. Run around with a car for a few days, maybe a week. The most they drive a car is their "long term" fleet. Even there, that's only for a year, on average. And, not one person drives it for a long period of time."
 
So renting a car while on a business trip for a couple of days is a better test than the above? How much track testing is done on a business rental? A couple days rental is better because it's "real world" compared to several weeks of driving by several different professional reviewers during a year long test? One person is working at a regular job, the other is doing nothing but evaluating a car. I guess reading any reviews by any kind of magazine or blog is a waste time. We should just wait for somebody on here to rent one for a couple days and give a thumbs up or thumbs down?
 
I like how some people put down the ATS right off the bat by READING about the 0-60 estimates from Cadillac(not professional testing or rental cars) and READING that it has an inch or so less back seat space than a 3(now that's what I base my decisions on, lol). Then turn around and ask someone else if they have any real world time in a vehicle as if they can't comment on it unless they have. Kind of hypocritical if you ask me.

#14501 of 16087 Re: 'Vette - return buyers [graphicguy] by m6user

Jul 27, 2012 (8:38 am)

Replying to: graphicguy (Jul 27, 2012 5:26 am)
"The trade rags do a little track testing. Run around with a car for a few days, maybe a week. The most they drive a car is their "long term" fleet. Even there, that's only for a year, on average. And, not one person drives it for a long period of time."
 
So renting a car while on a business trip for a couple of days is a better test than the above? How much track testing is done on a business rental? A couple days rental is better because it's "real world" compared to several weeks of driving by several different professional reviewers during a year long test? One person is working at a regular job, the other is doing nothing but evaluating a car. I guess reading any reviews by any kind of magazine or blog is a waste time. We should just wait for somebody on here to rent one for a couple days and give a thumbs up or thumbs down?
 
I like how some people put down the ATS right off the bat by READING about the 0-60 estimates from Cadillac(not professional testing or rental cars) and READING that it has an inch or so less back seat space than a 3(now that's what I base my decisions on, lol). Then turn around and ask someone else if they have any real world time in a vehicle as if they can't comment on it unless they have. Kind of hypocritical if you ask me.

#14502 of 16087 Road tests by fedlawman

Jul 27, 2012 (9:37 am)

I value magazine reviews of cars, but I take the opinions with a grain of salt. A road test done in isolation is good for a general overview of a car, but unless it is a comparison test with other cars, it is of limited value.
 
A comparison test is better because memory of the cars is fresh and the venue, conditions, etc. are the same, making for a more accurate review. But still, all people are influenced by expectation bias and so there is no such thing as an unbiased and impartial road test.
 
In the end, in choosing a car, you have to take in all the info and facts that are out there, test drive the car (hopefully long enough to discover the nits like the glare on the instruments when the sun is at certain angles, or that pressure point in the seat back that you won't notice until an hour of driving) and make a decision. With cars of this caliber, it will often be a decision of value, comfort, and aesthetics more than sheer performance.
 
As for the ATS, until I see and drive it in person and see some instrumented performance testing alongside it's peers (same day, same track), I will reserve judgement on it.

Messages Page 1451 of 1610

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