Last post on May 09, 2013 at 9:32 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#13931 of 16087 Re: Brief (for me) Update [flightnurse]
May 10, 2012 (6:45 pm)
Japanese cars lake personality- Someone in an civic blow you away at some stop light at some point?
Another small dink at the Japanese - I'm sure your BMW with 47k miles is great and rock solid-But please spare us with the German cars age better - ask a mechanic what ages better.
I am Glad you drive a manual - even thou your comments at times make zero sense ( see November comments on leader ads , and comments saying Infiniti g37 will be new for 2013) save the manuals.
#13932 of 16087 Re: Brief (for me) Update [carnaught]
May 10, 2012 (6:10 pm)
I have read many peoples post regarding the oil usage of the 2.0 turbo 4, I also read there is a TSB on it also.
#13933 of 16087 Re: Brief (for me) Update [sweendogy]
May 10, 2012 (6:40 pm)
Well, blowing somebody at lights is not my concern, but if wanted to my previous Subarus would do just fine. I also would rather take a car without personality than with a bad one.
The aging argument on German cars depends on what we are talking about. The chassis, main mechanicals, as long as maintained and not abused are probably fine for long. However, I would not be so sure about electrical system, motors, switches, etc. I think at some point Germans could not resist replacing $20/50000 hrs with one for $5/8000 hrs (just example, not real numbers) on false calculation of short-term ownership by first owner and they are slowly working back that lapse of judgement.
There is also their high maintenance-high complexity culture that has been present for decades (their war machines were like that, too, e.g. Panther tank required fully equipped shop to replace transmission and it had to be taken apart - allied/Russian tanks could have field tranny replacements; even its staggered wheel pattern made it more difficult to field replace the tracks on the field).
Every design has it objectives and constraints. At some point, getting closer to objectives (more performance in a car, better performing armored battle vehicle) comes at price of maintenance, complexity, which in turn can adversely affect the primary objectives in long term. In simple words, while working the machine has no equal, but to make it work can be cost prohibitive and even small setback has a potential becoming a major problem.
May 10, 2012 (6:55 pm)
As I mentioned, in engineering there is a point of diminishing returns, where gains in primary objectives are being offset by increasing costs, both direct and indirect and unintended effects.
I would say the main difference between Japanese and German cars is Germans are willing to test that limit going beyond it and are able then sell the product to willing people, like me. Japanese are asking different question, basically at what point it is good enough and not affecting other paralled objectives. That may be defined as lacking soul, but I don't think that is fair. It is matter of different objectives.
May 11, 2012 (4:18 am)
Mileage update: Last Fill up = 19.8 mpg
Dino - you are right, there are quite a few evenings that I sit in heavy traffic
Saw a BP station here in The Bronx where Super was 4.25/gal & Diesel was $4.49/gal
#13936 of 16087 Re: To continue [dino001]
May 11, 2012 (7:59 am)
Flight....in Europe, I can see the appeal of diesel cars. Here, where the vast majority of the time, diesel fuel is normally sold at a significant premium over gasoline, I can't see it catching on with passenger cars.
That said, I keep meticulous records on my 3. I have every fill-up recorded. I'm averaging about 22 MPG, overall. Lowest I got was 19 MPG. Highest was 29 MPG. Lowest price for gas I paid over the last year was $3.19/gal, highest was $4.01/gal. That's almost a 30% swing....with no supply disruption, with worldwide demand either flat, or declining. Tell me that traders aren't manipulating prices.
Japan vs German.....well, I think my former TL was built as well as anything I ever owned from Germany (essentially, 3 BMWs). That said, the CTS coupe I test drove was as solid as anything I've ever driven.
I had heard that the Audis were oil hogs, from more than one person. But, sounds like they may have a "fix" in the works for that.
My 2nd choice over my 335i coupe was either an S4 or an A5. At least locally, none of the ones they had in stock appealed to me. The two local dealers had all of 2 S4s in stock, and acted like they were made of platinum, or convertible A5s (again, I wanted a coupe).
So, neither got into my check book.
#13937 of 16087 Re: Brief (for me) Update [sweendogy]
May 11, 2012 (9:25 am)
Sweeny I'm not the one looking for a BMW 335iX w/ Sport package and Manual that would be you, if the mighty G is all that and more why would you give up a wonderful car with only 30K miles on it?
BTW, I do not race on the street, I leave that to the track. My opinion is that Japaneses 4 dr cars have no personality when driven hard. This includes the might Infiniti G and M, Lexus IS, and the new GS. For me they feel like an appliance. I'm not saying I am correct, but this is my opinion.
#13938 of 16087 Re: To continue [graphicguy]
May 11, 2012 (10:08 am)
Graphic for about 4 yrs I kept track of my mileage and how many gallons I used, but that stopped. I do however, have all my receipts for everything ever done to the car, tires, brakes, Suspension upgrades, Exhaust, black box re-flash, etc... I even have the original German plate's from when I pick it up.
The Audi A5, excellent car, if I was going to get a Audi it would be A5 or the A7.
#13939 of 16087 Re: Brief (for me) Update [flightnurse]
May 11, 2012 (10:21 am)
Now your talking- thanks just wanted a little clarity on your statement- we now understand why they have no personality - fair comment.
For me I have a couple of reasons why I would love a 335 x drive or an Audi s4. 1) they would have a warrantee- my car is no longer under the Infiniti umbrella. Sure it's only been driven by me, is in great shape but those tiny little gremlins in the dash could strike any day.
2) stick shift, save the manuals - I for one think the modern manuals are better then automatics,why? Well they make you become more engaged with the car and more aware of the other drivers- you are constantly monitoring speed- making sure you are in the right gear to pass- or to slow. I think it's a better way to drive period. I know 95% drive autos- but to me they are not driving - they are being driven. You can talk about dct, automanual, cvts- sorry they don't do it for me.
Passat Tdi article that flight mentioned about a couple that got 80mpg is a good read- best part about it? It was done with a manual transmission
May 11, 2012 (11:02 am)
There are plenty of resources -- both subjective and objective -- that discuss the German cars personalities or that decry the Japanese for making appliances.
All the "did too" "did not" that we may throw out here can also be additional data points -- there are so many of us we're not just relying on anecdotes, that is.
Virtually all cars have improved in reliability and durability -- but for whatever reason the Japanese cars (regardless of where they really come from) certainly seem to win the durability sweepstakes while the German cars typically win the fun to drive contest but pretty regularly are written about as being less durable.
My rattle free TL or my wife's rattle prone BMW certainly can't be assumed to represent all Acuras or BMWs and certainly shouldn't be assumed to represent ANYTHING other than themselves.
The surveys that are availble, however, regularly and frequently conclude that a Japanese car family (fill in the blank) will often far outlive a "similar" German car family (also fill in the blank) insofar as durability is concerned. And of course there is the matter of the expense of keeping any car beyond a certain point.
One of the folks I work with has a 13 year old Lexus and a 10 year old BMW -- both with well over 100K miles on the odometer. Both cars are paid for -- yet the BMW is often being driven in so that it could get the latest $1,100 repair or replacement part -- NEVER has the Lexus required such an outlay, according to my buddy.
On the other hand, another co-worker's BMW required new rotors and pads at 50,100 miles and his service cost almost the day out of warranty was over $1,800.
Now I wouldn't say the BMW was non durable due to the service costs the day the warranty died -- it just seems odd that would happen so young. The Japanese cars, have earned a reputation for long long lives -- we, here, are not the cause of such reputations, but perhaps there is something to it.
The European cars -- Germans in particular -- do not enjoy such reputations, no matter what we argue here.