Last post on Jun 18, 2013 at 7:02 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#13099 of 16251 Re: "My" 2012 BMW 328i [sweendogy]
Feb 14, 2012 (6:06 am)
I also think it is surprising (and even disapointing) they could not get their duck in row with xdrive, but to me since RWD is BMW lineage anyway, I don't see this as a big blow. They have always done phase-in approach, but this one is a little odd, as there will be old and new sedans being sold at the same time with same badges, just one "x" or "d" (diesel is also old) letter difference. Strange and confusing to some to say the least.
And you're welcome for the grammar lesson. As an immigrant (legal), I like to give back to the local folk. Nothing better than some literacy lessons . (ducking and covering)
#13100 of 16251 Re: 3-series 4-cyl [cdnpinhead]
Feb 14, 2012 (8:02 am)
They may have made that clear ... but I don't think they were telling the truth.
Why, then, do they have far cheaper examples in Europe? Why, then, do they offer a $31k 1-series? Frankly, I think claiming they don't WANT to offer it here is sour grapes. They don't believe there to be enough of a market to warrant it and/or they don't want to canibalize their own sales (would someone who stretched themself to buy a new 328 rather buy a 320? probably.), so they'd rather just say "I don't wanna."
That's my uneducated guess, anyway.
#13101 of 16251 Re: "My" 2012 BMW 328i [graphicguy]
Feb 14, 2012 (8:04 am)
I don't have a problem with a 4 cylinder BMW - Audi and Mercedes have them. The problem I do have is that NA isn't available anymore.
People ranted on and on when the dipstick went away and the cars became "leasers" (keep it for 3 years then ditch it) because of the inability to self-maintain them. Shade tree mechanics used to love BMWs, but not these new ones. And now, with a turbo in all of the 3ers, BMW is telling "don't even think of working on this car yourself." They might as well remove the hood latch mechanism...
As much as I like the engineering, performance, and economy of a turbo-4, I would never buy one.
#13102 of 16251 Re: "My" 2012 BMW 328i [fedlawman]
Feb 14, 2012 (8:11 am)
I don't necessarily mind the electronic oil level gauge. BUT, the problem with it is you can't check the level without running the engine! Ummm... anyone else see a problem there? "I think my oil is low, so I'd better run the engine to find out."
#13103 of 16251 Re: 3-series 4-cyl [qbrozen]
Feb 14, 2012 (8:49 am)
Why, then, do they have far cheaper examples in Europe?
That's not entirely accurate description of their European offering. What they have there is lots of different versions and options with their smaller-engine offerings obviously are cheaper to manufacture, but their prices are HIGHER than here - and by higher I mean INSANE.
They didn't have there "old" 328i (there were 325i and 330i, positioned just below/above in terms of hp, I believe these are same engines as those offered here before 2008), they have 335i just the same. If you configure one sold in German market to what sells here (largest in Europe), you come up with some ridiculous values. It would cost you there near double to get similar vehicle, I am not kidding (currency exchange already included). 335i for 100 grand anyone? A visit in BMW Welts is a real eye opener. A 1-series with smaller engine than here can cost you there equivalent of a base 5-series here. If you want to pay what we pay here, you come up with a base NA 4-cyl. engine, cloth seats, no extras of any kind. So it is not that people buy there 316i because they really want to and they simply don't like 335i, it's basicall most they can afford to buy. If you add their gas station bill being about double of ours, you get the picture. Oh no, if they'd take 328 or 335 in a heart beat if they paid what we pay.
People, you don't even realize how tough US market is for those guys and how lucky (demanding) we really are. They pay labor rates higher than here (especially if you factor in taxes paid by the employer) then they have to come here and sell it for a little more than half the price they'd command in their domestic market. If you realize that, you wonder how they are able to sell anything here at a profit and still offer decent (perhaps not great) choices.
On the flip side, there everybody gets choices upon choices, even in lower end brands. A typical 3-series price sheet is two pages here for a given body style, there it's a twenty-plus page booklet just for the same body style. People rarely buy from dealer's lots, they order and pick it up three to six months later. They often can't really test drive the car with engine they order (that's regardless of brand). Totally different experience.
#13104 of 16251 Re: "My" 2012 BMW 328i [graphicguy]
Feb 14, 2012 (8:51 am)
I agree that $47K is expensive for a 4cyl sedan. Heck, a 528xi w/ a 4cyl can be optioned well into the $60K range (yikes). I don't know if there is a stigma about driving a 4cyl car like there used to be back in the '80s & '90s. The "serial leasse will no doubt take the F30 out on a test drive and feel it has the same amount (or more, I haven't driven one yet) of "pickup.". The salesman mentions it's a 4cyl turbo that gets 30 something MPG on the highway. The customer hasn't driven a 4 cyl car since their early 1990's Toyota Tercel says: "wow, 4 cyl engines sure have changed."
You got a fantastic deal on a smokin 335i w x drive coupe. So you are right, it is possible.
BMW is a performance luxury brand. In the American market, performance (for the masses) is equated by 0-60 mph times. They don't want a 320i NA 4cyl in their stable that does the sprint in 7.5 - 8.5 sec.
#13105 of 16251 Re: 3-series 4-cyl [dino001]
Feb 14, 2012 (9:28 am)
OK, but what is the overall cost of living and average income? I mean, if we're talking US dollars here, is it just a matter of the US dollar being worth far less there? I'm not an economics guy by any stretch of the imagination (nor am I a world traveler), mind you, but I'm pretty sure something just simply costing more there means it is more expensive in relation to the average joe. Know what I mean?
I know this is going back a ways, but I know base Benzes, for example, served taxi duty. I would guess that's because they are relatively cheap, no? Does that still hold true today? Are they still used for that purpose?
#13106 of 16251 Re: 3-series 4-cyl [qbrozen]
Feb 14, 2012 (10:17 am)
Yes, there was a loss of value of the dollar in recent years, which opened the gap further than before to those insane levels, but it has always been there, even during strong dollar times. America has always been a land of cheap cars and energy. The payoff was lack of sophistication, generally relatively fewer choices, lower expectations of quality, especially fit/finish. An American buys a car (used or new) with an expectation of a trade in next three-five years, European expects to to keep it "for life", even if they ultimately do not. That sets a tone, pretty dramatically. They spend much higher portion of their income and then their operating costs are also higher to their income, which sets expectations very high. You'd have to watch some Top Gear comments every time they get an American-made vehicle for a test.
Ford Focus is sold there as "family" vehicle. It is sold with 1.4 and 1.6 engines. Ford Mondeo/(Contour/Fusion) is considered an "middle level executive" - also sold with 1.6-1.8 engine. In many countries there is a big tax and insurance penalty when you go over 2 litters. Denmark has new car registration fees at levels comparable to value of the car. I'm not kidding - people have been known to take loans to pay off registration tax. And the list goes on. Even Germans, most affluent of all Europe drive mostly VW, Fords and Opels in configurations that would make Americans laugh.
Taxi Benz is nothing like Benz you see here, the only thing in common is the shell and the star on the hood. It used to be attractive for taxi because of durability of their base NA diesel engine vs. price relation to other brands. Regardless if you buy a Ford or Benz, you will spend much higher share of income, but Benz (used to) offer million mile durability, tons of spare parts available from knock off manufacturers.
#13107 of 16251 Re: 3-series 4-cyl [qbrozen]
Feb 14, 2012 (10:33 am)
but I'm pretty sure something just simply costing more there means it is more expensive in relation to the average joe.
Don't want to sound condiscending, but Americans are really cute sometimes. Let me tell you what an average median income Joe Brit/Hans Deutch/Jose Span/Jaques the French get from life: They live in a 800 sf apartment in a multi-apartment house, commute to work with bus/trane and on weekends they drive a five-to-eight years old Ford Focus/Renault Megane/Opel Astra with 90-110 hp engine, most likely diesel. Dr. Hans or Dept. Manager Jaques have vastly better life - they live in 1500 sf house and commute in three-year-old Ford Mondeo/Peugeot 405 with 140 hp engine, also diesel. Regional Manager Julio just moved into 2000 sf house and bought a new BMW 520d (4-cylinder diesel) with cloth seats but a keyless entry, which he showed to every neighbor.
Well, exact facts may differ slightly, but that's a general tone. When you understand those differences, the perspective changes dramatically.
#13108 of 16251 Re: 3-series 4-cyl [dino001]
Feb 14, 2012 (12:03 pm)
Obviously, I had a typo in that statement. It should have been:
I'm not an economics guy by any stretch of the imagination (nor am I a world traveler), mind you, but I'm pretty sure something just simply costing more there doesn't means it is more expensive in relation to the average joe.
Just keep in mind, regardless of whether you find it cute or not, it doesn't mean what I said is incorrect. Everything is relative. Yes, if everything you say is true, then the cars apparently cost a larger portion of their income (although I have NO IDEA why). But since everything appears to be that way from what you are saying, then it is relatively on par with all living expenses, if you get my meaning.
Its the same thing from state to state here. Gas, food, taxes, real estate all vary WIDELY across the country. I could live as a king in Texas for pauper wages in NJ.
Hell, I'm middle management and I sure can't afford a new bimmer.