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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans
16087 messages, Last post on May 09, 2013 at 9:32 AM
You are in the Sedans Forum.What is this discussion about? BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#12585 of 16087 Displacement replacements and other thoughts. . . by markcincinnati
Dec 05, 2011 (2:13 pm)
A friend of mine frequently uses the phrase: "There's no replacement for displacement." He is appalled at the number of cars that may offer more than 6 cylinders but rarely sell (or stock) anything other than "blown" I4's, I6's or V6's (both naturally aspirated and forced induction.)I tell him that there IS a replacement for displacement and that it is "volumetric efficiency."
The 211HP 258 pound feet I4 in my 2009 A4 was both quick and fast -- with a 6spd automatic; in the new A4's the engine's rating remains but the car is even quicker, faster and more efficient due to an 8spd automatic.
In favor of the V8 S4, Audi switched to a super-charged V6; in the S8 Audi has elected to drop 2 cylinders (from 10 to 8) and produce an engine that is both more efficient and more powerful -- considering its size the S8 is a sipper, not a guzzler.
Only one Acura engine is boosted (the I4 in the RDX), and as far as I know there are no Infiniti engines that are either super or turbo charged.
The V6 in my 2012 Acura is, frankly, pretty much a basic (but buttery smooth) fuel injected V6 of the modern era. I was wondering what would happen if Acura (Honda) would change to FSI (fuel stratified injection) and super or turbo charge it? Seems to me that with very little effort the engine used today if brought to the current state of the blown art, would put out at least 20% more HP and 10% more torque all the while showing perhaps another +2 MPG's. Then, if they would upgrade the fine 6 speed auto to a current gen 8 speed, any Acura so blessed would go from its current potency (which is very good and is, at this time, Acura's most powerful engine [the 3.7, i.e.]) to high output potency -- in the engine department -- coupled with always being near or at the operating sweet spot due to the increase in the number of gears.
Think if Infiniti, currently without any forced induction engine offerings, were to begin offering their engines with a super or turbo charger (and also keeping their 7 speed autos) -- makes my head spin.
The Germans (and even the CTS-V) would have something more to worry about, with all these G's, M's, TL's and RL's armed for bear.
Will Acura or Infiniti ever up their engine game to this level, or will they take down-tuned engines and alter their breathing and computer maps to get them slightly better than they are now with a touch more grunt in the 0-60 dept? BTW, Infiniti already has a V8, so its creds don't need much engineering brain-power to at least be able to claim "we have V8's" even as they are bested by their very own 6's and 4's.
I used to assume the car mfgrs read the engthusiasts magazines and the postings here on Edmunds and elsewhere. But, apparentely they don't. If they did and if they were swayed by what is said in both places, well you think they would pay attention and respond (even if only a little bit) to some of the legitmate critiques made by the authors.
Audi and BMW are unlikely to loose credibility from a "sporting intentioned" family perspective. If someone want's to be certain their car hails from a lineage that includes "winners" and a widely accepted high performance heritage, look no further.
Acura, perhaps standing all alone, may be shooed from the ELLPS (a.k.a. Premium) board and "chat room" based on its historic but currently all but gone lack of focus. Yet the perception that Acura is a bit fuzzy in the perception of premium department remains for them. The ZDX certainly didn't help and allowing the RL to, more or less, atrophy away hasn't helped either. Of all of these car brands, Acura is in the most peril of losing its way.
Infiniti and Lexus are mostly safe bets to perservere as players in the ELLPS and LPS field, from what I can tell (although Lexus seems much more the luxury choice than the performance choice, but they are doing a yeoman's job to make this perception go away somewhat.)
Mercedes, too, a safe bet if what you really want is a bonafide member of the LPS club.
Volvo is, for the most part, doing what I think Acrua should do -- and that is building a performance image to go hand-in-hand with their safety image. They are about in the same position as Acura, the primary difference is Volvo seems to be really trying to put on a performance face these days.
Finally the iconic American brand, Cadillac, has demonstrated, these past 3 - 5 years, a penchant for creating an image that may not quite be able to stand toe-to-toe with BMW or Mercedes, for example, but they do keep sneaking up on it with ever more interesting designs and power plants -- including volumetrically enhanced (super-charged) models like the CTS-V.
We are in a time of inflection -- 2013 model cars are right around the corner and they continue to excite and delight (with the possible exception of Acura).
So here I sit a guy with a history of 29 Audi's, 3 BMW's, 3 VW's and 1 Acura -- wondering why in the hell I got the Acura. But, truth be told, the Acura is not a boring drive, quite the contrary in fact; however, it is somewhat boring to look at and, that more than anything, may be the crux of the matter.
#12586 of 16087 Re: Displacement replacements and other thoughts. . . [markcincinnati] by dino001
Dec 05, 2011 (3:28 pm)
Replying to: markcincinnati (Dec 05, 2011 2:13 pm)
New fuel efficiency standards pushed German manufacturers into new areas of smaller blown engines. It's probably both US and Euro driven. I don't think BMW is going I4 turbo because they want to. They do it because they have to. It makes me wonder if lack of such moves on part of Lexus, Infiniti and Acura is because they are considered parts of their parent companies' fleets. If this is the case, it would give them distinct advantage, as lux customer doesn't care about fuel efficiency to same extent as non-luxury. It's not completely non-issue, but it is not a big one.
#12587 of 16087 Re: Displacement replacements and other thoughts. . . [markcincinnati] by nyccarguy
Dec 05, 2011 (3:40 pm)
Replying to: markcincinnati (Dec 05, 2011 2:13 pm)
My thoughts on my 2010 TSX sort of echo some of your feelings toward your TL SH-AWD. The engine/transmission combination is very smooth. They feel perfectly matched together. I don't oogle over the styling of my TSX like say a 335i w/ M Sport Package, but its design is handsome & far from boring. Could my TSX use more power via DI, FSI, Turbo, or Supercharging? Yes, but then how much torque could the front wheels handle? Would Acura's SH-AWD add too much as far as weight (& price) to its current entry level price tag without stealing sales from the base FWD TL?
I'm happy with my TSX.
#12588 of 16087 Re: Displacement replacements and other thoughts. . . [nyccarguy] by markcincinnati
Dec 05, 2011 (4:12 pm)
Replying to: nyccarguy (Dec 05, 2011 3:40 pm)
The TL should only be sold in AWD trim, IMHO. According to my Ohio dealers, most of the TL's sold are Tech SH-AWD's anyway. I think Acura should do what Audi does in the US -- sell AWD cars (99% anyway) period. Content and price them with options and packages that make sense, but don't push massive amounts of technology in one package. In other words, offer a basic version of the cars (but ONLY in AWD trim.)
SH-AWD is damn near magic, it totally transforms the basic FWD car into a really believable ELLPS car. My dealers claim they sell mostly MDX's anyway, so Acura already seems to have at least the possibility of being all AWD all the time like Audi.
With the FWD models clouding the message, it seems Acura's sometimes are more like VW's than Audis, yet Acura has essentially stated it wants to be in the Premium class and that it wants to model itself on Audi.
I assume this makes sense since VW begat Audi and Honda begat Acura. Audi morphed (in the us) to the "quattro" company and claims to be the reigning champeen of AWD cars (with the most history, don't you know?) Audi has essentially eschewed FWD cars (in North America) in favor of AWD cars in order to be taken seriously as a contender in the Premium class -- where only RWD and AWD are taken seriously, it's in all the papers.
Acura keeps hanging on to its Honda roots where it's good AND where it's not so good, premium perception-wise. Audi, morphed from FWD to FWD and/or AWD to AWD, period. They entered and won contests and races and Wards awards and other awards, but these awards and the spoils of winning were all accomplished with their AWD versions. Although I guess you could buy an FWD A4 or A6, I don't know where you go to actually find one in the flesh for sale at a dealer.
And Audi did wonder "how much power can one put throught the front wheels" -- its answer was "not enough, so we need to put MORE power through the front AND rear wheels." And they are where they are now by taking the risk of virtually dropping FWD from the NA market.
And what happened next? BMW brought out the 325 (in 1988 (?) as I recall, since I had one) with AWD; then Mercedes started offering AWD here and there. Acura, Infiniti, Lexus, Volvo, VW, Cadillac, Buick and, and, and, the list goes on to cover every LPS and LPS wannabe brand and product.
As to the price impact -- I think it would be pretty easy to keep the price of an all SH-AWD fleet at about the current FWD models + $1,500; for the safety and performance this would offer, to say nothing of an image enhancement similar to that which Audi enjoyed, it is probably not a show stopper for the company.
And, most of us shopping in this class will probably not reject a new Acura that is exclusively offered with SH-AWD. For most, it ought to be a no-brainer.
I have nothing against FWD, btw, I just think it would be very helpful to Acura if it has the goal of remaining a serious premium class brand, to completely ditch any and all FWD offerings from its lineup.
#12589 of 16087 Re: Displacement replacements and other thoughts. . . [markcincinnati] by shipo
Dec 05, 2011 (4:23 pm)
Replying to: markcincinnati (Dec 05, 2011 4:12 pm)
Funny thing, for my current needs, wants and desires, the "perfect" car for me right-now-today would be an Audi A3 RWD (sacrilege I know, but I want it none-the-less) with a hotted up 2.0T and a 6-Speed manual. Of course no such a critter will ever exist, but one can dream can't one. 
#12590 of 16087 Re: Displacement replacements and other thoughts. . . [markcincinnati] by dino001
Dec 05, 2011 (4:23 pm)
Replying to: markcincinnati (Dec 05, 2011 4:12 pm)
I think Acura should do what Audi does in the US -- sell AWD cars (99% anyway) period. That's not entirely accurate. A3s and A4s are sold here mostly in FWD (Tampa). I asked a salesguy about it once. He surprised me. To Audi without AWD is like nonalcoholic beer or worse.
#12591 of 16087 Re: Displacement replacements and other thoughts. . . [markcincinnati] by sweendogy
Dec 05, 2011 (6:13 pm)
Replying to: markcincinnati (Dec 05, 2011 4:12 pm)
While I agree Acura should "advance" I feel they do not need to completely change to awd. They did very well in the 90 and 2000s with a front wheel drive setup. The biggest mistake is they lost its passion and have made the car more Buick then BMW. The dropped the low cost integra that got the youth in the door. They made the tsx bloated and its best car the TL (legend) is ugly and bloated. They also killed the nsx which was a reason to go into the dealership in the first place. Fwd setup not great for performance but it was these thigs that killed the brand and it's sales numbers. - Sh-awd or whatever it's called is pretty good setup but it's not the answer to get people in the door- they have more cara in th lineup then they did 10 years ago and sell half the number of cars.
- tlong (Dec 05, 2011 9:43 pm)
- markcincinnati (Dec 06, 2011 7:50 am)
Replies to this message:
#12592 of 16087 Re: Displacement replacements and other thoughts. . . [sweendogy] by tlong
Dec 05, 2011 (9:43 pm)
Replying to: sweendogy (Dec 05, 2011 6:13 pm)
While I agree Acura should "advance" I feel they do not need to completely change to awd. They did very well in the 90 and 2000s with a front wheel drive setup. The biggest mistake is they lost its passion and have made the car more Buick then BMW. The dropped the low cost integra that got the youth in the door. They made the tsx bloated and its best car the TL (legend) is ugly and bloated. They also killed the nsx which was a reason to go into the dealership in the first place. Fwd setup not great for performance but it was these thigs that killed the brand and it's sales numbers. - Sh-awd or whatever it's called is pretty good setup but it's not the answer to get people in the door- they have more cara in th lineup then they did 10 years ago and sell half the number of cars. Excellent post on Acrua, sween. Agree 100%. And I drive an '05 TL. A much better looking car IMHO than the current one. Acura has really lost its way, as has Honda.
#12593 of 16087 Re: Displacement replacements and other thoughts. . . [markcincinnati] by nyccarguy
Dec 05, 2011 (9:45 pm)
Replying to: markcincinnati (Dec 05, 2011 4:12 pm)
I think that's an excellent idea. Definitely a great way to differentiate Acura from its Honda roots. Buyers here in the northeast & new England will buy anything and everything AWD. Give my TSX a turbo, SH AWD, & excellent brakes (the oem brakes are pathetic) & I'd give it another look.
#12594 of 16087 Re: Displacement replacements and other thoughts. . . [sweendogy] by markcincinnati
Dec 06, 2011 (7:50 am)
Replying to: sweendogy (Dec 05, 2011 6:13 pm)
If my message somehow went too far, I apologize -- I do not believe that moving to an all AWD line-up (or 99%, as in the case of Audi -- and in the case of Audi it is 100% of their advertising) will alone re-position Acura in the minds of the intended customers. As I mentioned in my earlier post, the crux of the issue is not how these cars drive (if the 2012 TL Advance SH-AWD is any indicator), they are not a boring drive, not an incompetent drive, nor lacking in performance. The thing is the cars are pretty much not very attractive -- even if they do get bonus points for trying to look different.
They have the driving thing in pretty good shape as far as I'm concerned -- they need to modernize the engines and look at the content that is offered by every car brand/product they wish to emulate and be guided accordingly.
They need to consider making themselves perceived solely as an AWD company and they need an across the board styling transplant or upgrade asap.
Probably more than any other step they could take, styling is the one that will bear the most fruit. For, no matter how much they up their game in the performance or content arena, people need something to draw them to the showroom and something to feel good about after they buy.
My '12 TL is "better" in so many ways than my '09 A4 -- which was the first year for the change to the B8 platform for Audi. I would not expect this to remain thus -- a refreshed A4, most likely, will again be more attractive (in all the above ways) than the current TL (from a design perspective mainly.)
You don't have to agree with the magazines, but the current A6, which looks very much like a larger B8, A4, is winning friends, awards wise. No Acura is on any list I can find. BMW, too, remains a repeat top choice amongst those who award wins for being great.
Acura simply needs a style-ectomy, soon.
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