Last post on May 25, 2013 at 4:58 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#12192 of 16088 Re: Acura vs. The Germans [fedlawman] and Billyperks [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy]
Oct 02, 2011 (10:22 am)
I agree. But how is BMW any different?
The 328i is the same E90 introduced in 2005 (MY2006), only it has 15 more HP and weighs 100 lbs more. It is eclipsed in HP by several cars in this segment, but it soldiered on. Why? Because it sells.
It is the entry point into BMW luxury and prestige. For Acura, the TSX is the entry point into the ELLPS segment. And it sells - warts and all.
#12193 of 16088 Re: Acura vs. The Germans [fedlawman] and Billyperks [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman]
Oct 02, 2011 (2:05 pm)
the current tsx has also gained in weight vs the 2004-2008 model-- how many lbs well 150-- it also lost 4 hp somewhere and gained gained 8 lbs of torque during that time period. So from what you presented BMW is different --yep they added HP and weight, not vice versa. they have also tweeked it a bit since the last refresh-- and are due for another one in 2012 prob a reason why it sells...would love to see a post of something that can merit the agrument besides the fact that you own this car- one time..-a comparo test or a current write up about the sport you talk of.. it was a long time ago when they started this ELLPS blog.. maybe its time for an update with current players-- And it sellls? well it sells better then any other Acura for sure infact its almost half of all acura sales at a total of 32k units for 2010, that is in the us, canada and mexico -- but bmw sold 100k (us only sales) 3 series cars and infiniti also sold 58k of the G series (US ALONE). So i think the warts are showing more then you think.
Oct 02, 2011 (1:52 pm)
There are so many cars out there that aren't fantastic at one thing, they don't look good on paper, but they are great cars to drive. My TSX is one car that falls into that category. It's 201 hp 4 cylinder is not going to win any stoplight or out of a toll booth race. You really have to drive a TSX & a V6 Accord back to back. They "are not" the same car.
You seem to be a "car guy" and you know that a factory tuned suspension upgrade is so much better than one you can piece together from autozone or any various Internet site. It's like some people who say "why do I need to spend $XX,XXX more for an M3 (or S4) when I can just chip my 335i (or A4 2.0T) for $X,XXX and get just as much or even more power?".
There's also a company out there that makes a bolt-on supercharger for a V6 Mustang. It makes the V6 good for 475 horsepower. If you were in the market for a Mustang, would you buy a 5.0 GT or a V6 and get it supercharged? I'll take the V8.
I'll agree with you and fedlawman that the TSX V6 is a nose heavy pig. I personally don't think it needs to be in the Acura lineup. A V6 TSX has a sticker damn near a FWD TL & Honda puts crazy $4000 cash incentives on the V6 TSX to sell it. I have the sane gripes with C&D regarding its
electric power steering. The original TSX was a smashing success for Acura. I think the 1st year they only expected to sell 15,000 units. How many did they sell that 1st year?
You have to remember that us enthusiasts are a sliver of a small percentage of the market. I believe the 2 main gripes (from the general buying public) were the small-ish back seat & modest
power output. They made the car bigger (adding weight) and added a V6 option (whic doesn't sell well & adds weight & torque steer)
Anything the "tuner crowd" says Acura should use from it's parts bin will ruin the car's driving characteristics & appeal. "Give it SH AWD" adds weight, cost, & complexity. "Give it the 4cyl Turbo from the RDX" adds cost, complexity, & weight. Not to mention torque steer as well.
Part of the TSX's charm & appeal in this ELLPS segment is it's price point which it gets from being built on an Accord platform (or being an Accord from the rest of the world), it's 201 horsepower 4 cyl engine, 5 speed automatic transmission (you want a 6 or an 8 speed auto, that'll cost you too), low weight, the fact that Acura even OFFERS a slick shifting 6-Speed manual transmission.
Try walking on to your local BMW, Audi, MB, Lexus dealer and tell me how many 3,C,A4,IS have MSRPs under $40,000. Yes I know you can order your car any way you like it. Acura gets you into the door of this segment.
Like fedlawman said, drive it against an IS250 & G25 to tell me it isn't competitive and doesn't belong. Ive never driven a G25, but have driven an IS250 AWD (high 90% of sales in the northeast) & it's 201 horsepower V6 accelerates about as fast as a Toyota Yaris. The TSX's base 4cyl is lively & happy to rev all the way to it's 7,000 RPM redline. I can tell you it has a certain Germanic ride quality to it. Very solid and extremely stable on the right side of 80 mph.
Oct 02, 2011 (2:22 pm)
acura does offer a Manual in both the TSX and TL which i think is great.. but less then 10% of total cars sold-- mainly because the real car drivers are not shopping acura -- OR they would sell more to the real sports fans-- pretty simple-- how many of those TSX leases out on LONG ISLAND are leased with manuals, NYC carguy?? If you want a BMW you can order a base 328 or 128 with a manual and it will outperform this TSX in every way. No one is talking about the tuner crowd here or even the IS or the G25, infact if you were watching last posts you would see the jetta and accord are now comps. We are talking about a car that has not changed in over 10 years except get bigger and heavier thus killing its sporty nature which is why it was in the EELPS but no longer should be considered.
#12196 of 16088 Re: NYCITYCARGUY [sweendogy]
Oct 02, 2011 (2:34 pm)
acura does offer a Manual in both the TSX and TL which i think is great.. but less then 10% of total cars sold-- mainly because the real car drivers are not shopping acura
Just what percent of BMWs, A4s, C300s, Gs etc etc are sold with manual trannies? I'm pretty sure it's very close to the percentage you attribute to "non-sports" cars. Just because they are offered doesn't mean that they sell that many. I think I read somewhere that even BMW is only about 10% sticks. I don't think that manual transmission buy rates should be the determining factor as you keep saying over and over and over again. I also know some pretty darn good car drivers that don't drive sticks for a variety of reasons and certainly not because they can't drive well.
As far as the TSX goes, there has to be a entry point to this category and one person is hardly the authority. Edmunds, when comparing to the GTI, said it wasn't as good a sport car or something like that. But, they did put it in the same category.
#12197 of 16088 Re: NYCITYCARGUY [m6user]
Oct 02, 2011 (3:10 pm)
ok but again where is the proof that this car should be here- anything published besides your thoughts would be of great value- the car rags or anything that can substanciate your claim- lets be serious here- the TSX is a great entry level car for someone who is looking for value luxury not sports sorry..
i love the fact that you guys are defending this once great value but again when compared to its true comp its not really the value it once was. Now if you include acura as a brand behind this car it validates my claim - they are nowhere when it comes to sport. They are behind every other major comp in almost every category and have been happy for years being an OK (middle of the road) company.
#12198 of 16088 Re: NYCITYCARGUY [sweendogy]
Oct 02, 2011 (3:07 pm)
A better question would be why do you have such a vendetta against it? Acura, as a brand, may have gone astray of some their sportier past models but that doesn't change the TSX that much at least any more than other brands have grown and gotten heavier. Acura is a luxury or a near luxury brand. TSX is it's entry level offering and it's a sedan. The only questionable operative word in the title of this thread then would be performance which is somewhat subjective. So for you to set the bar is quite assuming it seems.
Oct 02, 2011 (3:08 pm)
is this ever going to end?
People who own or have driven the 1st gen TSX seem very pleased with it. One or two people who haven't seem to have a near-psychotic problem with it.
It's just a car. These days anything with a manual transmission is 80% of the way to being a sports sedan. There aren't many anymore.
The last time I remember things getting this weird was when there was a board on here called "BMW 5-series or Pontiac Grand Prix GTP," where people who were totally invested their personal opinions went on for years (well, maybe it was months, but it seemed like years). There was a GM fanboi who just kept on and kept on and kept on.
Oh well. . .
#12200 of 16088 Re: NYCITYCARGUY [m6user]
Oct 02, 2011 (3:45 pm)
well the board is to talk about Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans which I feel and have shown by reviews and sales figures that it does not belong here in its current state. Others have given personal thoughts but nothing concrete on why it belongs here- i like facts over subjective comments to prove a point.
and i'm spent.
#12201 of 16088 Re: NYCITYCARGUY [sweendogy]
Oct 02, 2011 (3:37 pm)
ok but again where is the proof that this car should be here...
Trying to prove a subjective judgement is silly. And citing car magazines (which are also subjective judgments) isn't much better. The fact that we aren't sure means it should probably be IN the discussion.