Last post on Dec 06, 2013 at 7:58 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#12172 of 16984 Re: Acura vs. The Germans [fedlawman] and Billyperks [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman]
Oct 01, 2011 (4:56 pm)
I love the illustrations but they prove little but you did point out that acura/honda did have a good past stable of sports cars but as you know the nsx hasnt been produced since 2005 the s2000 was 09... now given the fact that those 2 cars were rwd and were light weight and were great handlers - something the TL and TSX are not.
- Is the A4 a sports sedan->- well thats a great question-- i think in 6speed form with the turbo and awd with the sports package it could be. but I think audi has moved the car into the mainstream to compete vs the TL's and ES's -but in the past with the 2.0 or 1.8 turbo and 6speed for sure it was. the s4/s5 for sure are. the newer car has put on some weight and to get an audi with fwd for me audi is stupid.
the tsx is not sporty because of its platform as stated before --its an accord which is a great car but just not sporty.
The jetta in standard for is not close to the TSX but in GLI form its more of a sportie sedan then the TSX-(plus its cheaper)- same amt of power.. both have put on weight, but the GLI would be a sportier option given the fact they offer a quick DSG transmission. Same one thats in the GTI. The Jetta R will offer the VR6 in 2012 and get to 60 in 5.5 seconds or about 2.2 seconds quicker then the manual tsx (which only 10% of buyers would get).
funny you bring this up -- i leased a acura GS-R and in 2004 had to return it and i considered the TSX, which i liked in manual form ... but I drove the VR6 jetta gli and saved 4k.
edmunds tests the gli vs the tsx...
heres my favorite line "As much as we liked the refinement of the Acura, the GLI's performance makes it the better sport sedan"
good read, eh - i like your passion but again i think we should move this car off the board..
i love the track pixs but stay out of the left lane.
#12173 of 16984 Re: Acura vs. The Germans [fedlawman] and Billyperks [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [tlong]
Oct 01, 2011 (5:10 pm)
my post is based on the last 10 years of production. comparison test and sale numbers.
"narrow price elasticity" that was from wiki and stated the v6 acura competes with cars that are considered more sporty options.. its says nothing of "tacking on" 10k and calling it more sporty.
Ultimately, while i respect your opinion, its about what the experts recommend and what people buy as being a big decider on what a successful car-- and its a fact that acura has lost share to both bmw, audi and infiniti -- im glad you think that acura handles like the germans but the fact of the matter is the critics and car buyers dont care about the current line. Please get me a recent article where and acura product (NON SUV) has beat anyone (not named buick) in a comparison test. I think its great that people support the brand but the brand has gotten old and its roots of the great NSx, LEGEND, AND INtegra GS_R are forgotten in this current line of cars.
#12174 of 16984 Re: Acura vs. The Germans [fedlawman] and Billyperks [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy]
Oct 01, 2011 (6:05 pm)
You and I fundamentally think differently about cars.
In my opinion, a sports car is a sports car based on its DNA, not it's horsepower or amount of traction or it's pedigree.
I don't believe that the base A4 (a regular car) magically becomes a sports car because you increase the horsepower or add traction. I don't agree that the "regular" Jetta is a family car and the GLI is a sport sedan.
Does the Mini require a supercharger to be considered a sports car?
None of the cars in this segment are "sports cars." At best, the sportiest of the bunch is a sporty Grand Tourer. The point is that all of the cars in this segment (including the TSX) are cut from the same cloth. That is, they are cars designed to offer a degree of performance and luxury above the common family car.
And to meet you halfway, I'll even say that the TSX with automatic transmission is questionable as a ELLPS. The TSX's saving grace is how the entire driving experience is utterly transformed when equipped with the 6MT.
I've said it before - the only people who don't think the TSX is a sport sedan (in the ELLPS context) are people who haven't really driven a 6MT TSX.
Around Pacific Raceways, my old TSX was every bit as capable as the BMW 325i's sharing the track with me. It was a joy to drive fast, which is the ultimate test of a sport sedan.
#12175 of 16984 Re: Acura vs. The Germans [fedlawman] and Billyperks [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman]
Oct 01, 2011 (7:52 pm)
I guess Your right a sports car should weigh 3500-4000 lbs and have less the 200 hp and fwd. - the tsx is a sporty car when it's paired with the 6 speed.
I drive the 04 tsx and it has the best manual transmission in the segment by far but it's not fast, it handles good for a front driver but it's not a sports car. And the fact that the current acura sales demographic is closer to Buick then BMW. Now i agree that a true sports sedan has prob died due to current weight of the group we speak of.
Now for you to disagree with me is fine but what about the edmunds article that declared the jetta gli better then your tsx ? And you are right your tsx could stay with a 325 but the current tsx could not stay with the current 328 and I think that's my point, current Acura models just can't compete because they never evolve.
#12176 of 16984 Re: Acura vs. The Germans [fedlawman] and Billyperks [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy]
Oct 01, 2011 (9:41 pm)
Since when does the buying demographic have anything to do with how sporty a car is? I see a lot of irrelevance in the arguments. Perhaps some cars don't have "sports car carpet" either LOL!
#12177 of 16984 Re: Acura vs. The Germans [fedlawman] and Billyperks [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy]
Oct 01, 2011 (10:32 pm)
I've never driven a Jetta GLI so I can't comment on it. I think it's (a lot) smaller than the TSX and doesn't have as many amenities and has a less refined driveline though - not a near-luxury segment car. I do really like last years cockpit lighting and layout though - very upscale for an economy car.
The TSX weighs less than any version of the A4 Audi makes. It's also lighter than the G25 and IS250. And Honda's I-4 makes similar power to both of those competitors V-6 motors.
The TSX is also the epitome of a smooth refined driveline. The switchgear/cockpit ergonomics and quality is maybe a notch below Audi but certainly as good as or better than Infiniti, Lexus, and BMW.
Plus, if you do own a 2004 6MT TSX, then you know the joy of revving that Honda I-4 up to 7400 RPM - only BMW's legendary I-6 is as satisfying to wind up.
And talk about keeping pace - the TSX has soldiered on with the same specs for 8 years and Infiniti comes out with a brand new car that offers a mere 17 more HP and weighs almost 200 lbs more?!?! Acura must be doing something right to inspire Infiniti and Lexus to build such close competitors.
Every car in this segment has an Achilles heel. The TSX is the least expensive car here, and it offers a lot of ELLPS for the money. But if you want more than 200HP, then obviously it's not the right choice.
#12178 of 16984 Re: Acura vs. The Germans [fedlawman] and Billyperks [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman]
Oct 02, 2011 (4:35 am)
Govt mpg mandates have a lot to do with why Infiniti and soon BMW are taking down hp. I dont think it has anything to do with acura inspiration. Now I know the tsx offers little more then you can get in a standard accord except an extra year on the warantee and an acura badge, sure it has nice leather innards but the ergonomics are subject to personal taste. , As edmunds stated in the article the gli slightly beats it as a sport car. I know the sweet vtexh and it's great action manual (whicjlh I hope stays)- but the tsx has only gotten fatter over the years - with no power boost - 90% of them are automatics and it's currently sitting in a stale stable. I'm looking for a recent article that mentions this car as being a sports sedan, one published in the last 3 years.
#12180 of 16984 Re: Acura vs. The Germans [fedlawman] and Billyperks [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy]
Oct 02, 2011 (7:42 am)
"Now I know the tsx offers little more then you can get in a standard accord except an extra year on the warantee and an acura badge."
You forgot to mention that the TSX is physically smaller inside and out and has a 4" shorter wheelbase. It has a higher compression engine with a higher redline and 10 more HP. The TSX also has a beefier rear sway bar, high performance tires, sport suspension, sport seats, and a 6-speed MT.
#12181 of 16984 Re: Acura vs. The Germans [fedlawman] and Billyperks [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy]
Oct 02, 2011 (8:01 am)
"2 car and driver articles -- again the acura in the middle of the pack vs cars that are not considered lux cars."
Some TSX quotes from your first link...
"Such a treat to drive this car after herding some of the others around the course. So much more certainty, so much more precision." "This is a case of all the parts working together—quick responses, crisp steering, excellent brakes, minimal body roll, and it's all so easy." "Just brimming with confidence. Even on a long, dull interstate, you can feel the athletic tension of the chassis, all ready to burn up some twisties. Bravo!"
"As much as we love this car's precision, refinement, and athletic nature, every story we've published about it has made some sort of apology for its relatively modest power... But in this comparison, the power shortage was costly."
Your second link features the V-6 TSX, which is a nose-heavy, numb-steering pig. Not the car I'm talking about. They said it themselves...
"The TSX V-6 is a smart cookie that just needs to lighten up a little. Which is code for, “Stick with the manual-transmission, four-cylinder TSX."
So it looks like Car & Driver agrees with me. The 4 cylinder TSX with 6MT is the jewel of the Acura lineup and a superb ELLPS.