Last post on Dec 04, 2013 at 8:41 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan
Oct 01, 2011 (12:21 pm)
Short answer, no. At this point, an Audi A4 2.0T Prestige + SLine with everything on it except ADS would be a great car. I have ADS, I have, currently both a 2009 A4 Prestige + Sport Pakage (that has ADS) and a 2012 Acura TL Advance.
In 2009 but not in 2011 or 2012 Audi A4 2.0T Prestige + Sport or SLine packages, I see less of a need for the $3,000 ADS option due to the fact that the new A4's can be had with an 8-speed tiptronic that comes with Sport Shift and in Sport Package or SLine configuration comes with a lowered sport suspension and sport seats and a sport steering wheel with paddle shifters.
In other words, TODAY, I would not get an A4 2.0T Prestige + SLine, w/ 8 speed tiptronic and pony up for the ADS.
Another reason I would not get this option today: on the A4, Torque Vectoring is not an option (yet). I would pay for the ADS -- on an A4 -- if it came with TV.
The S4, at $50,000 is content poor compared with a $47K TL Advance -- but the S4 can be had with TV, under the name Sport Differential. I believe to get TV, however, one needs to buy ADS (on the S4.) The total additional cost to get both ADS+Sport Differential is, as I recall, about $4,500.
The S4 I would want would have to be contented to the TL Advance level, and that requires that the S4 be configured NOT as a Premium Plus, but as a Prestige model.
If you do all of this to an S4, its MSRP is some $12,000 more than the Acura TL Advance with backup sensors (which is how I have mine configured.)
Now, having said all of this, I would rather have the S4 than the TL. Moreover, I would have, at the time, gone with a 2012 Audi A4 2.0T Prestige+SLine without ADS, if the price on a 36 month lease was comparable to the Acura lease (the MSRP's would have been very close to each other so configured.)
I should stipulate, that to save a bit, I would be fine with the A4 2.0T Prestige 8-speed tiptronic version with EITHER sport package or SLine, and I know the sport package would have been somewhat less money than SLine, which, for the price difference only includes trim differences not suspension or other performance inducing differences.
In any case, my decision was not based on which car I thought was the best -- I went with the one (THIS TIME) that I thought was the BEST VALUE. The TL Advance (with the oddly optional back up sensors $725) filled that bill very nicely. My lease on the TL for 36 months was about $150 per month less than the lease on the Audi A4 (Prestige, Sport, etc, etc) for 42 months. At 36 months (apples to apples) the Audi was about $200 per month more than the TL which, although it ain't no Audi, is -- for $200 per month less -- a fine imitation.
I've had 29 Audis, since 1977. I have been to the Ingolstadt factory for the how they build 'em tour, 6 times. I have participated in 4 Audi driving schools in Seefeld, Austria (and won one of them -- fastest time through the course.) I, for a number of years, would bleed little interconnected rings when cut. Audi of America sent me to St. Moritz along with 49 other of their "top 50" North American customers for the Audi sponsored women's downhill ski cup event.
And, I bought one of the first A8's in 1997 (ordered in 1996 and waited 11 months) after Audi sent my dealership a Euro-spec A8 and asked the dealer to loan it to his top customers for 24 hours (undoubtedly a ploy to make the star struck customers order up a new A8 -- which I did.)
If the above doesn't qualify me at some level to judge or at least opine about the differences and similarities between an Acura TL Advance and an Audi A4 or S4, I don't know what else does.
If I could somehow have been convinced that the Audi was not just incrementally better than the Acura, but substantially better, I would have probably gone with the 2012 Audi A4 2.0T Prestige SLine w/8-speed tip. But after driving two Audis, an A4 and an S4 (2011's and the A4 did not have the sport package -- or SLine, and the S4 was what is simply called Premium Plus and it did NOT have the Sport Differential) then driving a Cadillac CTS/4 with the 19" wheel sport package (2011) and then the Acura TL Advance, I thought the Acura TL was most like an S4 than it was an A4 or a CTS.
I also drove a Volvo S60 T6, an Infiniti G37X/S and an Infiniti M37X Premium+Tech, and an Acurca ZDX Tech. While my '09 A4 was in for service I also had been loaned a 2011 Audi A6 3.0T Premium Plus for a day.
Every one of these cars were test driven (and I was video'd by my wife whilst I was driving and giving a running commentary) over the exact same route, the sound systems were tested with the exact same CD's/tunes (Wecome to the Machine, Pink Floyd; How Dare You, 10CC; and, New Frontier, Donald Fagen.)
So, I offer up for your consideration: the Audi, Acura, Cadillac, Infiniti and Volvo are all great cars and more alike than different, generally speaking. I wouldn't kick any of them out of bed for eating crackers, and I'd even bring the crackers.
You can argue that the Audi is the prettiest (which it is) and the Acura the ugliest (well, hell, that's true too -- even though it is less ugly for 2012), the Cadillac is the "blingy-est" (no doubt) and the Infiniti's remain the Japanese BMW's, while the Volvo is the most unexpected -- and delightful to drive -- car of the bunch.
The Acura does excel in one area: it has the best damn factory sound system I have ever heard.
And, for me, an almost S4 at the price of an Acura TL Advance SH-AWD, is a no-brainer.
Drive it like you live -- I'll say it again, these are all very nice cars and all deserve your consideration if you are in the $40 - $50K market.
I am, for the next two days driving a new Acura TSX which is the loaner car I was given while my TL has the back up sensors grafted to the rear bumper -- it too is a "nice car," but compared to the others in this Edmunds category, it seems like it is out of place, or perhaps, out of its class.
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
#12168 of 16982 Re: Acura vs. The Germans [fedlawman] and Billyperks [sweendogy] [fedlawman]
Oct 01, 2011 (2:25 pm)
your joking when you say the 3 or audi a4 platforms vs the one of the tsx... these cars were developed with autobahn in mind and driving at speeds over 100mph.. the accord was developed in japan and in no way claims to have any sporty intentions, its fwd and comes with a 4cy engine that pumps out 170lbs of torque. this is also the same engine (albeit tweeked) that honda puts in the crv and element.. honda sold millions of accords before the Tsx was even a thought in mister hondas head. Is it rigid, is the suspension geometry inferior?? your watching to many of those acura tsx wagon commercials..
this is from wiki and i couldn't agree more
"The Acura TSX has a narrow price elasticity, as the base model 4-cylinder TSX is considered a good deal for a luxury car, however higher trims (particularly the V6 powered models) are considered too expensive as they compete directly with sport luxury cars such as the Audi A4 and Infiniti G and Acura's own TL."
nice rig - but not a sports sedan. but it is sporty, if i was looking for a new accord i would consider this instead. maybe we should consider moving sedan to another forum vs the accord v6 and sonata turbo, or maybe vs the ES 350.
#12169 of 16982 Re: Acura vs. The Germans [fedlawman] and Billyperks [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy]
Oct 01, 2011 (3:31 pm)
So a FWD 4 cyl Audi A4 is a sport sedan but the TSX isn't? So does the Audi qualify because it's German? Because it's engineered better?
What about the VW Jetta? Is that sport sedan too?
So the TSX is "sporty," but it's not a sport sedan because it isn't "developed with the Autobahn in mind?"
Is any Honda designed for the Autobahn?
How about this one?
I know this isn't...
Here are a few pictures of me and my Accord mixing it up with real sport sedans a few years ago...
#12170 of 16982 Re: Audi Drive Select [markcincinnati]
Oct 01, 2011 (3:55 pm)
. . . driving a new Acura TSX . . . it seems like it is out of place, or perhaps, out of its class.
Nicely put, as always -- describes both my car and myself in just a few words.
#12171 of 16982 Re: Acura vs. The Germans [fedlawman] and Billyperks [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy]
Oct 01, 2011 (4:09 pm)
I have owned both Audi and Acura. I tend to agree that for a big price, the Audi is generally a nicer car. But your post is biased based upon irrelevant criteria, IMHO.
"Cars developed for the autobahn" - All of these car companies are selling worldwide and all need to meet various needs of different countries, whether that be suspension tuning or emissions or left/right side drive. Some Accords in fact are developed in the USA. Germans develop cars in the US, GM develops cars in Europe and China and Australia. It's quite simplistic to assume that parent country of origin = where the car is developed.
"comes with a 4cy engine that pumps out 170lbs of torque" - seems to me that BMW and MB have plenty of 4 cyl engines in Europe (on the autobahn ) and somehow that's ok.
"The Acura TSX has a narrow price elasticity" - frankly, I don't see why price elasticity has ANYTHING to do with being a sports sedan, as if tacking on $10K to a price makes a non sports-sedan into one.
Ultimately, a sports sedan shouldn't be about cachet, or where it was developed, or whether it is fwd or rwd or 4wd, or whether there is an autobahn or potholes nearby, or whether the platform is shared with economy cars, or whether the price is high or low or elastic or inelastic. What matters is how the car handles, how it feels, how well appointed it is. Given those criteria, Acuras are pretty close to a lot of the European offerings.
#12172 of 16982 Re: Acura vs. The Germans [fedlawman] and Billyperks [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman]
Oct 01, 2011 (4:56 pm)
I love the illustrations but they prove little but you did point out that acura/honda did have a good past stable of sports cars but as you know the nsx hasnt been produced since 2005 the s2000 was 09... now given the fact that those 2 cars were rwd and were light weight and were great handlers - something the TL and TSX are not.
- Is the A4 a sports sedan->- well thats a great question-- i think in 6speed form with the turbo and awd with the sports package it could be. but I think audi has moved the car into the mainstream to compete vs the TL's and ES's -but in the past with the 2.0 or 1.8 turbo and 6speed for sure it was. the s4/s5 for sure are. the newer car has put on some weight and to get an audi with fwd for me audi is stupid.
the tsx is not sporty because of its platform as stated before --its an accord which is a great car but just not sporty.
The jetta in standard for is not close to the TSX but in GLI form its more of a sportie sedan then the TSX-(plus its cheaper)- same amt of power.. both have put on weight, but the GLI would be a sportier option given the fact they offer a quick DSG transmission. Same one thats in the GTI. The Jetta R will offer the VR6 in 2012 and get to 60 in 5.5 seconds or about 2.2 seconds quicker then the manual tsx (which only 10% of buyers would get).
funny you bring this up -- i leased a acura GS-R and in 2004 had to return it and i considered the TSX, which i liked in manual form ... but I drove the VR6 jetta gli and saved 4k.
edmunds tests the gli vs the tsx...
heres my favorite line "As much as we liked the refinement of the Acura, the GLI's performance makes it the better sport sedan"
good read, eh - i like your passion but again i think we should move this car off the board..
i love the track pixs but stay out of the left lane.
#12173 of 16982 Re: Acura vs. The Germans [fedlawman] and Billyperks [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [tlong]
Oct 01, 2011 (5:10 pm)
my post is based on the last 10 years of production. comparison test and sale numbers.
"narrow price elasticity" that was from wiki and stated the v6 acura competes with cars that are considered more sporty options.. its says nothing of "tacking on" 10k and calling it more sporty.
Ultimately, while i respect your opinion, its about what the experts recommend and what people buy as being a big decider on what a successful car-- and its a fact that acura has lost share to both bmw, audi and infiniti -- im glad you think that acura handles like the germans but the fact of the matter is the critics and car buyers dont care about the current line. Please get me a recent article where and acura product (NON SUV) has beat anyone (not named buick) in a comparison test. I think its great that people support the brand but the brand has gotten old and its roots of the great NSx, LEGEND, AND INtegra GS_R are forgotten in this current line of cars.
#12174 of 16982 Re: Acura vs. The Germans [fedlawman] and Billyperks [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy]
Oct 01, 2011 (6:05 pm)
You and I fundamentally think differently about cars.
In my opinion, a sports car is a sports car based on its DNA, not it's horsepower or amount of traction or it's pedigree.
I don't believe that the base A4 (a regular car) magically becomes a sports car because you increase the horsepower or add traction. I don't agree that the "regular" Jetta is a family car and the GLI is a sport sedan.
Does the Mini require a supercharger to be considered a sports car?
None of the cars in this segment are "sports cars." At best, the sportiest of the bunch is a sporty Grand Tourer. The point is that all of the cars in this segment (including the TSX) are cut from the same cloth. That is, they are cars designed to offer a degree of performance and luxury above the common family car.
And to meet you halfway, I'll even say that the TSX with automatic transmission is questionable as a ELLPS. The TSX's saving grace is how the entire driving experience is utterly transformed when equipped with the 6MT.
I've said it before - the only people who don't think the TSX is a sport sedan (in the ELLPS context) are people who haven't really driven a 6MT TSX.
Around Pacific Raceways, my old TSX was every bit as capable as the BMW 325i's sharing the track with me. It was a joy to drive fast, which is the ultimate test of a sport sedan.
#12175 of 16982 Re: Acura vs. The Germans [fedlawman] and Billyperks [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman]
Oct 01, 2011 (7:52 pm)
I guess Your right a sports car should weigh 3500-4000 lbs and have less the 200 hp and fwd. - the tsx is a sporty car when it's paired with the 6 speed.
I drive the 04 tsx and it has the best manual transmission in the segment by far but it's not fast, it handles good for a front driver but it's not a sports car. And the fact that the current acura sales demographic is closer to Buick then BMW. Now i agree that a true sports sedan has prob died due to current weight of the group we speak of.
Now for you to disagree with me is fine but what about the edmunds article that declared the jetta gli better then your tsx ? And you are right your tsx could stay with a 325 but the current tsx could not stay with the current 328 and I think that's my point, current Acura models just can't compete because they never evolve.
#12176 of 16982 Re: Acura vs. The Germans [fedlawman] and Billyperks [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy]
Oct 01, 2011 (9:41 pm)
Since when does the buying demographic have anything to do with how sporty a car is? I see a lot of irrelevance in the arguments. Perhaps some cars don't have "sports car carpet" either LOL!