Last post on Dec 04, 2013 at 8:41 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#12160 of 16982 Re: " Not even close in comparison... "
Sep 30, 2011 (12:15 pm)
Well, having driven both the S4 and the TL back to back, I can say they are close, if you don't consider the price -- the TL is, IMHO, kind of an Audi AS4, if such an animal actually was available from Audi.
Of the Audi S4 and Acura TL, Automobile Magazine said:
"If it seems like neither car can pull an advantage here without the other catching up, you've been paying attention. The final equalizer is that, comparably equipped, the Audi costs nearly $11,500 more than the Acura. That kind of money can buy the TL a serious brake upgrade. But the price difference isn't much of a factor here, since we've never actually heard of someone cross-shopping a TL and an S4."
Well, I sorta did. . .
"The Acura is blessed with nearly perfect cornering balance, so its rear differential can easily and dramatically alter the car's handling attitude. It takes a little while to build up trust in the system, but you soon realize that if the car can handle any amount of power in the middle of a turn, it can handle anything the V-6 can throw at it. There's no reason to be scared of the right pedal-the TL begs you to steer it with the throttle. The more power you add, the more neutral the TL's cornering balance and the faster it scrambles through turns. Indeed, the Acura was faster than the Audi through nearly every single corner at BeaveRun."
"It's beside the point to declare a winner or loser when comparing two cars that fall into such different hands in the real world. As that most rabid of enthusiasts, you already have your own prejudices and opinions based on the brands alone, not to mention the countries from which they hail. If we could combine the Audi's good looks, brakes, and tupercharged V-6 with the Acura's steering, handling, and all-wheel-drive system, we'd have discovered luxury car nirvana for the enthusiast driver. In the absence of that elusive hybrid, we walk away from these two wolves in sheepish skins knowing that they are absolute equals in one way: the ability to reassure us that there is, in fact, life after Evo."
0-60 mph: 5.0 sec
0-100 mph: 11.5 sec
0-110 mph: 13.5 sec
0-120 mph: 16.4 sec
0-130 mph: 19.7 sec
0-140 mph: 23.4 sec
0-150 mph: 28.6 sec
1/4-mile (sec mph): 13.5 110
30-70 mph passing: 5.7 sec
Peak g: 0.69 g
0-60 mph: 5.4 sec
0-100 mph: 13.5 sec
0-110 mph: 16.3 sec
0-120 mph: 20.5 sec
0-130 mph: 24.9 sec
0-140 mph: *
0-150 mph: *
1/4-mile (sec mph): 14.1 102
30-70 mph passing: 6.8 sec
peak g: 0.66 g
kliky here for the full deal:
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/driven/1008_2010_acura_tl_sh_awd_vs_2010_au- - di_s4/index.html
#12161 of 16982 Mark, GG, & Fedlawman
Sep 30, 2011 (6:30 pm)
Fedlawman - if for some reason you do have to part ways with your beloved E30 M3, I don't think a 135i is the car for you. Do yourself a favor & get a 911.
BTW, speaking of women & M3s, I was pumping gas into my Pilot yesterday & a woman in her 50's pulls up next to me in a 1997 E36 M3 Sedan. 5 speed, Motorsport wheels. She gets out & I tell her I really like her car. She goes on to tell me she's the original owner & the car has over 200,000 miles on it. It has never once been in the shop for anything other than regular maintenance.
Graphicguy - There is a saying, "Never say never.". I will never own a Lexus. We don't plan on having anymore kids. I know eventually I won't need a people mover.
Sep 30, 2011 (8:04 pm)
I like your opinion on the Audi Drive Select. So you'd take a $50,000 A4 2.0T with Audi Drive Select (trick rear diff) over a $50,000 S4 without it?
#12163 of 16982 Re: Acura vs. The Germans [fedlawman] and Billyperks
Oct 01, 2011 (5:53 am)
why are they baseless? just because it's got a Acura badge and not Honda does not make it a sports sedan - sporty 'er' yes. but same platform and drive train, so I don't get your point. the a4 and vw platform - well the current line of vw does not have quarto or 4 motion on the sedans. I would say that's a major difference. the 3 series comment now thats baseless.
Billy until acura changes it's boring style they will continue to fail- the brand has lost significant share in the space . numbers don't lie.
#12164 of 16982 Re: Acura vs. The Germans [fedlawman] and Billyperks [sweendogy]
Oct 01, 2011 (8:06 am)
I'm not talking about the badge on the hood.
You haven't explained why you think the Accord platform is less suited to underpinning a sport sedan than the VW/Audi platform or the BMW 3-series platform.
Is it not as rigid? Is the suspension geometry inferior?
#12165 of 16982 Re: Acura vs. The Germans [fedlawman] and Billyperks [sweendogy]
Oct 01, 2011 (10:14 am)
Platform and same engine doesn't equal same car.. The Acrua suspension is tuned for more sporty driving then the Accord. I would also suspect the Automatic in the Acrua is tuned for quicker shifts then the Accord.
The Audi and VW platforms is what I just talked about might be some of the same but the tuning of the suspensions is completely different...
Also the Leather in the Acura is a far better grade then that of the Accord.
#12166 of 16982 Re: Mark, GG, & Fedlawman [nyccarguy]
Oct 01, 2011 (12:18 pm)
"speaking of women & M3s, I was pumping gas into my Pilot yesterday & a woman in her 50's pulls up next to me in a 1997 E36 M3 Sedan"
A few weeks ago, I was driving around town in my M3 and while sitting at a light, a middle-aged woman in an E28 M5 pulled up next to me. I rolled down my window and waved to get her attention, but her eyes were glued in front of her.
We actually traveled down the road a few blocks in sight of each other and she never once made eye contact with me (and I was practically flailing my arms to get her attention).
How is it possible to own a car like that and not notice a comrade-in-arms?!?!
Oct 01, 2011 (12:21 pm)
Short answer, no. At this point, an Audi A4 2.0T Prestige + SLine with everything on it except ADS would be a great car. I have ADS, I have, currently both a 2009 A4 Prestige + Sport Pakage (that has ADS) and a 2012 Acura TL Advance.
In 2009 but not in 2011 or 2012 Audi A4 2.0T Prestige + Sport or SLine packages, I see less of a need for the $3,000 ADS option due to the fact that the new A4's can be had with an 8-speed tiptronic that comes with Sport Shift and in Sport Package or SLine configuration comes with a lowered sport suspension and sport seats and a sport steering wheel with paddle shifters.
In other words, TODAY, I would not get an A4 2.0T Prestige + SLine, w/ 8 speed tiptronic and pony up for the ADS.
Another reason I would not get this option today: on the A4, Torque Vectoring is not an option (yet). I would pay for the ADS -- on an A4 -- if it came with TV.
The S4, at $50,000 is content poor compared with a $47K TL Advance -- but the S4 can be had with TV, under the name Sport Differential. I believe to get TV, however, one needs to buy ADS (on the S4.) The total additional cost to get both ADS+Sport Differential is, as I recall, about $4,500.
The S4 I would want would have to be contented to the TL Advance level, and that requires that the S4 be configured NOT as a Premium Plus, but as a Prestige model.
If you do all of this to an S4, its MSRP is some $12,000 more than the Acura TL Advance with backup sensors (which is how I have mine configured.)
Now, having said all of this, I would rather have the S4 than the TL. Moreover, I would have, at the time, gone with a 2012 Audi A4 2.0T Prestige+SLine without ADS, if the price on a 36 month lease was comparable to the Acura lease (the MSRP's would have been very close to each other so configured.)
I should stipulate, that to save a bit, I would be fine with the A4 2.0T Prestige 8-speed tiptronic version with EITHER sport package or SLine, and I know the sport package would have been somewhat less money than SLine, which, for the price difference only includes trim differences not suspension or other performance inducing differences.
In any case, my decision was not based on which car I thought was the best -- I went with the one (THIS TIME) that I thought was the BEST VALUE. The TL Advance (with the oddly optional back up sensors $725) filled that bill very nicely. My lease on the TL for 36 months was about $150 per month less than the lease on the Audi A4 (Prestige, Sport, etc, etc) for 42 months. At 36 months (apples to apples) the Audi was about $200 per month more than the TL which, although it ain't no Audi, is -- for $200 per month less -- a fine imitation.
I've had 29 Audis, since 1977. I have been to the Ingolstadt factory for the how they build 'em tour, 6 times. I have participated in 4 Audi driving schools in Seefeld, Austria (and won one of them -- fastest time through the course.) I, for a number of years, would bleed little interconnected rings when cut. Audi of America sent me to St. Moritz along with 49 other of their "top 50" North American customers for the Audi sponsored women's downhill ski cup event.
And, I bought one of the first A8's in 1997 (ordered in 1996 and waited 11 months) after Audi sent my dealership a Euro-spec A8 and asked the dealer to loan it to his top customers for 24 hours (undoubtedly a ploy to make the star struck customers order up a new A8 -- which I did.)
If the above doesn't qualify me at some level to judge or at least opine about the differences and similarities between an Acura TL Advance and an Audi A4 or S4, I don't know what else does.
If I could somehow have been convinced that the Audi was not just incrementally better than the Acura, but substantially better, I would have probably gone with the 2012 Audi A4 2.0T Prestige SLine w/8-speed tip. But after driving two Audis, an A4 and an S4 (2011's and the A4 did not have the sport package -- or SLine, and the S4 was what is simply called Premium Plus and it did NOT have the Sport Differential) then driving a Cadillac CTS/4 with the 19" wheel sport package (2011) and then the Acura TL Advance, I thought the Acura TL was most like an S4 than it was an A4 or a CTS.
I also drove a Volvo S60 T6, an Infiniti G37X/S and an Infiniti M37X Premium+Tech, and an Acurca ZDX Tech. While my '09 A4 was in for service I also had been loaned a 2011 Audi A6 3.0T Premium Plus for a day.
Every one of these cars were test driven (and I was video'd by my wife whilst I was driving and giving a running commentary) over the exact same route, the sound systems were tested with the exact same CD's/tunes (Wecome to the Machine, Pink Floyd; How Dare You, 10CC; and, New Frontier, Donald Fagen.)
So, I offer up for your consideration: the Audi, Acura, Cadillac, Infiniti and Volvo are all great cars and more alike than different, generally speaking. I wouldn't kick any of them out of bed for eating crackers, and I'd even bring the crackers.
You can argue that the Audi is the prettiest (which it is) and the Acura the ugliest (well, hell, that's true too -- even though it is less ugly for 2012), the Cadillac is the "blingy-est" (no doubt) and the Infiniti's remain the Japanese BMW's, while the Volvo is the most unexpected -- and delightful to drive -- car of the bunch.
The Acura does excel in one area: it has the best damn factory sound system I have ever heard.
And, for me, an almost S4 at the price of an Acura TL Advance SH-AWD, is a no-brainer.
Drive it like you live -- I'll say it again, these are all very nice cars and all deserve your consideration if you are in the $40 - $50K market.
I am, for the next two days driving a new Acura TSX which is the loaner car I was given while my TL has the back up sensors grafted to the rear bumper -- it too is a "nice car," but compared to the others in this Edmunds category, it seems like it is out of place, or perhaps, out of its class.
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
#12168 of 16982 Re: Acura vs. The Germans [fedlawman] and Billyperks [sweendogy] [fedlawman]
Oct 01, 2011 (2:25 pm)
your joking when you say the 3 or audi a4 platforms vs the one of the tsx... these cars were developed with autobahn in mind and driving at speeds over 100mph.. the accord was developed in japan and in no way claims to have any sporty intentions, its fwd and comes with a 4cy engine that pumps out 170lbs of torque. this is also the same engine (albeit tweeked) that honda puts in the crv and element.. honda sold millions of accords before the Tsx was even a thought in mister hondas head. Is it rigid, is the suspension geometry inferior?? your watching to many of those acura tsx wagon commercials..
this is from wiki and i couldn't agree more
"The Acura TSX has a narrow price elasticity, as the base model 4-cylinder TSX is considered a good deal for a luxury car, however higher trims (particularly the V6 powered models) are considered too expensive as they compete directly with sport luxury cars such as the Audi A4 and Infiniti G and Acura's own TL."
nice rig - but not a sports sedan. but it is sporty, if i was looking for a new accord i would consider this instead. maybe we should consider moving sedan to another forum vs the accord v6 and sonata turbo, or maybe vs the ES 350.
#12169 of 16982 Re: Acura vs. The Germans [fedlawman] and Billyperks [sweendogy] [fedlawman] [sweendogy]
Oct 01, 2011 (3:31 pm)
So a FWD 4 cyl Audi A4 is a sport sedan but the TSX isn't? So does the Audi qualify because it's German? Because it's engineered better?
What about the VW Jetta? Is that sport sedan too?
So the TSX is "sporty," but it's not a sport sedan because it isn't "developed with the Autobahn in mind?"
Is any Honda designed for the Autobahn?
How about this one?
I know this isn't...
Here are a few pictures of me and my Accord mixing it up with real sport sedans a few years ago...