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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

16251 messages,  Last post on Jun 18, 2013 at 7:02 AM

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What is this discussion about? BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan

Messages Page 1215 of 1625

#12141 of 16251 Re: I bought one... [graphicguy] by markcincinnati

Sep 27, 2011 (3:06 pm)

Replying to: graphicguy (Sep 27, 2011 10:39 am)
I am pretty well convinced that my 2012 TL will outperform my 2009 A4 2.0T, too. The Audi, which has Audi Drive Select, can be put into "dynamic" mode and that makes the steering more responsive and the dampers more firm and the transmission shift at higher speeds. It has 19" wheels with Ultra High Performance Yoko S.Advan (?) all-season tires (35% aspect ratio).
 
It has rear wheel drive biased quattro and last but not least has 211HP and 258 lb ft of torque with the power going through a 6 speed automatic "tiptronic" transmission.
 
It, the Audi that is, is and has been great fun to drive and it is confidence inspiring to the max.
 
The TL isn't quite as hunkered down feeling, but it is wider and has about a 1" shorter wheelbase. It is nose heavier than the Audi (but not a whole lot), rides on similar tires (but not Ultra High Performance) of 40% aspect ratio is front biased AWD, but also includes torque vectoring. It feels a bit softer than the A4, it is quieter and feels a bit larger -- but it has 305HP and 274 lb feet of torque, and when properly applied when cornering, the damn thing seems to be able to magically go from a nose heavy understeering blob, to an oversteering (slightly) taught, tight curve carver.
 
The Audi probably can cut the corners about at the same speeds, or maybe higher than the Acura, even without torque vectoring -- but when coming out of the curve the 305HP allows the Acura to always show the Audi its tail lights.
 
My Audi, all in, was $49K (MSRP) The Acura, just south of $48K -- at these prices power rules. And, overall the Acura is a very nice place to spend some time either behind the wheel or as a passenger enjoying the ventilated seats (that the Audi lacks).
 
Said it before, irrational as it might be, if the Audi were the same lease price per month as the Acura (that is about $200 less), I would have gone with another Audi -- just for that special something that only a German car seems to offer.
 
Irrational.
 
Couldn't see the price per month delta though and that seems rational. I am overall quite pleased with the Acura and if they continue to improve and move forward AND keep their value prop, well, I could become a TRUE BELIEVER.
 
You know, though, any of these cars are pretty damn nice.
 
 

#12142 of 16251 Re: I bought one... [markcincinnati] by graphicguy

Sep 28, 2011 (9:22 am)

Replying to: markcincinnati (Sep 27, 2011 3:06 pm)
You know, though, any of these cars are pretty damn nice.
 
That....we absolutely agree upon!
 
Your TL, my 3, the Audis....all of them do amazing things, as they should, at the price points they sell at.
 
They do so dynamically, comfortably.....
 
I know I averaged about 21 MPG on my TL SH AWD. I'm averaging about 24 MPG on my 335i (which amazes me even more). I don't baby my cars, either.
 
These cars have come far.

#12143 of 16251 Acura vs. The Germans by nyccarguy

Sep 28, 2011 (1:28 pm)

graphicguy & markincincinati - I think the 2 major things you'll both notice that are different between your current & former TL SH AWD & current BMW & Audi are:
 
Steering. Having never driven a TL SH AWD, just my 2010 TSX, I can tell you the electric power steering stinks. Road feel is non-existant at low speeds. At higher speeds it is really nice and tight though.
 
Brakes. There is a reason that my TSX is less expensive than pretty much every other car in this segment. Acura honda had to cut corners somewhere. The brakes on my TSX are terrible. Nothing at all like BMW's RIGHT NOW brakes with their incredible pedal firmness & physics defying stopping ability.
 
Obviously power is different too. Mark's Acura is definitely faster than his former A4, while graphicguy's 335 has the ability to outrun pretty much 90% of the normal cars on the road

#12144 of 16251 Re: Acura vs. The Germans [nyccarguy] by tlong

Sep 28, 2011 (1:46 pm)

Replying to: nyccarguy (Sep 28, 2011 1:28 pm)
I had a 1998 A4 (6 cyl) and have an '05 TL. Differences between the two:
 
- TL has more electronic goodies (but 7 year newer car)
- TL poorer handler, wallows in turns
- TL's climate control much quieter
- Audi interior clearly nicer
- Audi control feel and driving feel clearly better
- Audi inspired much more passion
- Audi extremely expensive to maintain, the few things that broke were a LOT
- Acura has been outstandingly reliable and cheap to maintain

#12145 of 16251 Re: Acura vs. The Germans [nyccarguy] by sweendogy

Sep 28, 2011 (6:02 pm)

Replying to: nyccarguy (Sep 28, 2011 1:28 pm)
Breaks are not the only thing that makes the acura tsx less expensive. 4 vtek which is in every other honda product prob being the biggest saver of money for the acura car, lets not forget the accord platform. Its not really a sports sedan but more of a sporty sedan, as 90% of them are sold with automatics. (same thing with the TL, nice rig for sure but not a true sports sedan- even in sh-awd form) Closest to the germans is Infiniti by far-- rear wheel drive, good breaks, sports packages, manual transmissions (which are sadly going away) . Cars from the far east are closer then they have ever been but its going to be interesting to see what car companies do in the upcoming years as they need to keep up with MPG mandates - I know BMW will be bringing a 4cy to the states soon, Acura can use the turbo 4 it already produces, infiniti will team with MB for its next line of engines, should be interesting.

#12146 of 16251 Re: Acura vs. The Germans [sweendogy] by nyccarguy

Sep 28, 2011 (6:57 pm)

Replying to: sweendogy (Sep 28, 2011 6:02 pm)
I might be mistaken, but off the top of my head the only other Honda Product that uses the exact same motor (2.4L - 201 hp - 176 lb/ft torque) is the Civic Si.
 
I'll agree with you that under extreme circumstances, my TSX shows it's Accord Platform roots. We have some seriously twisty back roads here in southwestern Connecticut. There's one particular road where the sign shows "S" curves for 1 mile with a 15 mph suggested speed limit. My TSX shows the flaws in it's chassis.
 
Like many here have said, price aside, I'd choose a BMW.
 
Every single car in this segment shines in it's own way. A 3 series equipped like my TSX (or even a TL) costs significantly more, has a smaller back seat, & a smaller trunk.
 
The 3 series is sharper, handles better, drives much better overall.

#12147 of 16251 Re: Acura vs. The Germans [tlong] by ivan_99

Sep 28, 2011 (7:57 pm)

Replying to: tlong (Sep 28, 2011 1:46 pm)
heh...it's a little hard to compare a 98 A4 with even an 05 A4...model change in 02 then again in 05.

#12148 of 16251 Re: Acura vs. The Germans [sweendogy] by fedlawman

Sep 28, 2011 (8:13 pm)

Replying to: sweendogy (Sep 28, 2011 6:02 pm)
These references to the Accord platform and Acura's not being a true sport sedan are baseless.
 
So all those Audi A4's built on the Volkswagon B6 platform aren't sport sedans either?
 
And I suppose the BMW 3-series isn't really a sport sedan because it shares a platform with an SUV and a FWD car?

#12149 of 16251 Re: Acura vs. The Germans [ivan_99] by tlong

Sep 28, 2011 (9:22 pm)

Replying to: ivan_99 (Sep 28, 2011 7:57 pm)
heh...it's a little hard to compare a 98 A4 with even an 05 A4...model change in 02 then again in 05.
 
I don't think the general characteristics between Acura and Audi (driving feel, interiors, costs, reliability) have changed in any fundamental way over the time period.

#12150 of 16251 Re: Acura vs. The Germans [tlong] by ivan_99

Sep 29, 2011 (1:00 am)

Replying to: tlong (Sep 28, 2011 9:22 pm)
I do...way back, I had a 97 A4 and it felt, drove, smelled...very differently from the 05's. Not vastly like going from a Hummer H1 to a Fiat 500...
 
I originally intended to convey that a 05 TL should be compared to a 05 A4...even if the 'old' Audi was superior in specific categories.
 
Reliability: Last time I compared JD Powers manufacturers reliability the "new" Audi's were on par (problems per 100 vehicles) with Toyota's from 5 years ago.

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