Last post on May 09, 2013 at 9:32 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#12116 of 16087 Re: In the market... [jerseyguy77] TSX [markcincinnati] [graphicguy]
Sep 23, 2011 (9:14 am)
Thanks for the congrats -- here is the Buying Story.
I found a website called CARWOO.COM -- which, for a one time fee, allows you to locate and price a car without revealing your identity. Unlike competing web sites that do essentially the same thing, CARWOO takes money ONLY from the buyer, not from the seller (unless, of course they are lying.) I paid $148 which allowed me to send queries to EVERY Audi, Acura, Infiniti and Volovo dealer in Ohio, Kentucky and Indiana. I limited my selection to the dealers under 200 miles away from Cincinnati.
CarWoo allows you to configure the car exactly as you want it and you get a text box to explain any flexibility you may have or anything you will not consider.
You then press a button and wait about 24 hours for the CarWoo email machine to start sending you links to your CarWoo account with offers from dealers.
To make a long story a bit shorter, Volvo responded quickly and would not budge off of a $1,000 off MSRP discount. Bzzz! Thanks for playing, maybe next time.
Infiniti was pretty aggressive and two dealers offered me prices that almost had me saying yes.
Audi dealers responded, oddly, (all of them) saying they had no inventory and that any A4 would have to be ordered. One of them finally gave me a price but it was for 42 months, not 36 or 39 and it began with a $7 (for a sub $48,000 A4 for pity's sake).
Acura, locally, came in AT BEST, with a 6.5% discount off MSRP (Columbia). A Columbus Ohio dealer -- Lindsay Acura -- came in at 13% off MSRP for a 2012 Acura TL SH-AWD Advance with backup sensors (which are about a $715 accessory.) Here's the funny thing, they sourced the car from Columbia -- I have the window sticker! Whatsupwiththat?!?
The car was $499 per month + tax.
I had driven ALL of the cars (not a Lexus or MB of any kind) multiple multiple times and really liked the A4 (what's not to like I still have my 2009 for another 30 days?), the M37X and the TL SH-AWD (Advance model). Likewise I thought the Volvo S60 T6 was GREAT FUN! I also had a chance to drive a Premium+ Audi S4 (without the sport diff -- aka no torque vectoring.) Now THAT car was the most fun of all (but in Premium+ mode had much less "content" than the other cars I had tested, plus is was mo' money, big time.)
Truth be told in what was nearly a back to back to back experience, I drove the Audi, the Cadillac and the Acura over the exact same route for about the exact same time, speeds, tunes on the sound system, etc, etc, in one day's worth of test drives.
I am hoping not to receive a bunch of "ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND" posts, but I will venture to say this -- the Acura TL SH-AWD Advance is very close in performance and overall "character" to an Audi S4 -- and although very nice and perhaps "dressier," the Cadillac CTS/4 3.6 with the 19" wheel performance option was the least inspiring of the bunch.
Now the Acura TL SH-AWD Advance is no Audi S4, I am not saying it is, the S4 would be the winner, but contented to match the Acura was just shy of $12,000 more and I could not muster the one that I drove (which was not contented thusly) into and out of corners THAT much quicker than I could the Acura (which may have had an advantage over the Audi at the time since the Acura had torque vectoring and the the Audi did not. Moreover, the Audi did seem more prone to wallowing through corners as if it had more understeer than the Acura, which, even though it was slower seemed perhaps better balanced than the Audi.
So, I says to myself, the Acura (as equipped to my tastes) was just under $48,000 (including shipping, but excluding tax), and my price was about $8,000 off of that -- thank you CarWoo.Com.
No one else even came close.
Remember I was pricing an A4 2.0T Prestige 8-spd Tip w/sport package and wood which came in pretty close MSRP wise to the Acura. The Cadillac had attractive offers but other than its glizt left me thinking it was not focussed on performance as much as the other guys. And, the Cadillac had one thing missing that, for me, was a deal breaker -- a $53,000 CTS does not have grab handles for the front seat passenger or driver. All the other guys do -- and I consider them essential, basic, standard, normal and required. How much do grab handles cost anyway -- in a $53,000 car, maybe $50? What were they thinking? And, moreover, Cadillac in the 4-door CTS does not even offer a blind spot warning system -- which came standard on both the Audi and the Acura at the trim levels I spec'd.
So, thus far, I am missing the Audi new car smell, I miss automatic windshield wipers and bi-xenons (but I rarely can turn on my high beams, so that is not that big of a deal) -- and, oddly enough, I miss the Audi needle sweep when I start the Acura up.
Then, I get on the highway and press my foot down, arousing a 305HP 274 pound feet of torque super smooth engine, watch the power shift from the front to the rear wheels and, zip, I'm at 80MPH in a distance that seems not much longer than my driveway.
Loving the cooled seats and the best sound system I have ever heard in any car (including the B&O in Audi which had been my previous fave.)
Having said all of this -- I probably still would have gone with the Audi 2.0T Prestige Sport if it had come in at a price to match the Acura.
Money talks, as the saying goes. . .
Sep 23, 2011 (9:56 am)
Yes the RX8 is light, Balanced,RWD, & Nimble. Like shipo says, at costs. The engine's torque peaks at a very lofty RPM and my Dad's 2010 Chevy Tahoe gets better gas mileage.
Before you quote me EPA sticker numbers, find out what the real world MPG is on an RX8.
Sep 23, 2011 (11:30 am)
Great deal & a great write up on a fantastic car.
#12119 of 16087 Re: In the market... [jerseyguy77] TSX [markcincinnati] [graphicguy] [markcincinnati]
Sep 23, 2011 (11:57 am)
Mark...cool! As NYC said, great write-up.
I'm familiar with both Columbia and Hidy. Funny that Hidy was trying to sell a car that was on Columbia's lot.
Interesting about CARWOO, also. Personally, I don't care if dealers know my identity. But, I can see where if you didn't want to be bothered with having them contact you where it might be useful.
Anyway, that TL is a very nice ride. You'll like it during the time you have it parked in your driveway.
Funny about Audis. When I was looking several months ago, S4s were on my shopping list. The Cincinnati dealer told me they had such limited stock of everything because the factory wasn't shipping them as many cars. That included their volume model the A4. They had one S4, but it wasn't even close to what I was looking for, and it was a demo.
The Audi store in Dayton had one, but it was a 2K mi trade-in (wonder how much of a bath that owner took) who wanted the (then new) A7 instead.
Beechmont had the best selection with 4 S4s at the time. But, like you, I couldn't see where the price delta was worth it to pay that much more over the similar TL SH AWD.
BMW is offering to do a factory performance retrofit on my 335i, which would up both the HP and the torque by about 7%. Understand, I believe that BMW is stretching the truth about how much HP and torque the 335i motor is putting out in factory trim (it's a lot more). The kicker, I can do the facotry performance upgrade at my dealership, complete with normal BMW warranty for $600.
I'm debating if I'll want it. My car's already as fast as greased lightening, how much more could I want? But, we're talking 20 extra ponies here.
#12121 of 16087 Re: In the market... [jerseyguy77] TSX [markcincinnati] [graphicguy] [markcincinnati] [graphicguy]
by kyfdx HOST
Sep 23, 2011 (6:34 pm)
$600 for 20 horsepower?
That's a cheap upgrade....
#12122 of 16087 Re: Not Hidy. . . [markcincinnati]
Sep 24, 2011 (7:01 am)
Mark....sorry about that. Seems I've talked to, or visited every Acura and BMW dealer within a 100 mile radius of Cincinnati in the last couple of years. They start to run together.
I'm familiar with Lindsay, too. While, I've not visited the store, I had dealt with one of the sales people there, who wasn't very good. I was looking for a particular color combo. He said he had it. When I asked him for the VIN#, he strung me along, wanting me to come to the store to "talk about the car". I wanted to make sure they had the color combo before making a 90 minute drive. I told him all it would take for me to drive up to visit him was the VIN so I could confirm he had what I wanted. He couldn't/wouldn't He wouldn't assure me of that.
Again, congrats on the car. It's a very nice one that you're going to enjoy a lot.
kyfdx.....here's the blurb on Edmunds (which my dealer confirms they can do).....
I know the previous 135/335 had the twin turbo (N54), and the new ones have the twin scroll turbo (N55). I've driven both. The N54 had a bit of turbo lag (not much). But, BMW overboosts it at higher RPM (which is why the 335is is rated with more HP and torque than the N55. However, I think both motors are under rated and put out more HP and torque than BMW says they do.
That said, I'm trying to decide if I want the extra HP/torque. That would essentially make my 335i coupe with the same engine performance as the 335is, which is mighty good.
But, mine is really good to begin with. I'm debating but probably will do it when I can schedule some time at the dealership to get it done. Who doesn't like more HP and torque?
How's your new Z4, BTW? Did you ever post pics?
#12123 of 16087 Re: demand & wants [shipo]
Sep 24, 2011 (8:19 am)
Maybe I'm confusing threads, but if I recall correctly, the discussion about how heavy cars have gotten included a reference to RWD Sedans. While I'm personally biased toward RWD vehicles, I don't use my bias to exclude other drive layouts from the ELLPS segment.
I didn't exclude FWD or AWD cars, it's just that BMW's earlier models set the standard for the class, which led to the best example, the E30. (also Volvo did make a 240 turbo which was nearly identical at the time). That both were RWD was just because that's how they liked to make cars.
But as far as weight, 3500+ lbs isn't sporty. Not when you add in fuel, fluids, a battery, and normal stuff like a spare tire, which aren't part of the "dry weight" listed. That adds another 200-300 lbs or so, conservatively. Then add in a typical driver, and you can be at or near 4000lbs rolling down the road. Physics dictate that you cannot get a 2 ton anything to turn on a dime and actually be nimble.
Now, compared by decades of sofa on wheels, yes, they could be described as "sporty." But they're a far, far cry from their original roots.
Oh, I thought of another possible small sport sedan to add to the under 3000lbs list - the Mini Cooper S. In fact, this is a perfect example, because on paper the turning radius is actually worse than a 128i. (vs 35.1 vs 36.2 ft) But drive one and it's a huge difference in how they actually move and handle.
Here is the 128i vs the Cooper. Of note is the huge difference in slalom speeds. Weight is a huge problem that even better tires and RWD can't completely mitigate.
In something like a TSX, well, the slalom speed for a TSX is 64.6 mph (both Edmunds, same exact testing methods) The original E36 M3? Edmunds managed to get one to go 75mph through their slalom. Just a whole other planet compared to today's cars.
#12124 of 16087 Re: demand & wants [plekto]
Sep 24, 2011 (11:36 am)
"Edmunds managed to get one to go 75mph through their slalom."
#12125 of 16087 Re: In the market... [jerseyguy77] TSX [markcincinnati] [graphicguy] [markcincinnati]
Sep 24, 2011 (1:23 pm)
congrats on the TL- as a pedestrian i'm happy that acura cleaned up the look a bit for 2012. Living in new england I see very few (08?)09-11 versions then one would expect.. Audi, BMW, Infinitis along with TSX's are way more common-- my guess it has to do with looks along with the TSX being a good cheaper option.
does anyone know when acura will do a revamp of the current lineup?
I will check out your advertisement for car woo, thanks.