Last post on May 09, 2013 at 9:32 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#12053 of 16087 Re: In the market... [m6user]
Sep 18, 2011 (9:24 am)
When you could get a car the size of a Crown Vic back in 1965 that weighed only 3000lbs, with maybe 2lbs of plastic (knobs and so on) and the only aluminum in it at all was in the engine block itself, yes, we've come back to the 1970s all over again.
At 3500-3600 lbs and a wheelbase that's just under two inches shorter than a Buick LaCrosse, the current 3 series is a bloated pig that's nothing like the older cars from the 90s. Which could still be called sport sedans.
What we have flooding the marketplace now are very heavy cars with big 300HP+ engines and long wheelbases. This is the definition of a muscle car, or it was back in the 60s and 70s.
2006 Buick LaCrosse
turning 35.8 ft
curb weight (lb) 3495 lbs
2011 BMW 335i sedan
108.7 wheelbase (only 1.8 inches shorter)
turning 36.1 (larger? Wait - a FWD *Buick* turns better than a RWD BMW?)
curb weight: 3605 lbs. (heavier than a Buick?)
1991 BMW (E30 series)
curb weight: 2900 lbs
Something's gone horribly wrong in the last 20 years. We're now content to call essentially Buick-size and weight muscle cars "sport sedans".
#12054 of 16087 Re: In the market... [plekto]
Sep 18, 2011 (9:34 am)
Not too sure what people are smoking on this board, but first off the 1 series is a couple or Convertible not a sedan. Regarding muscle car, that is a tough term to nail down. One could say the 335i is a muscle car 300hp 300 lbs of torque. The M3 could be called a muscle car too, 400Hp V8. But I don't think BMW would classify their 3 series as a muscle car.
#12055 of 16087 Re: In the market... [plekto]
Sep 18, 2011 (9:40 am)
Dude, the 3 series has grown in size granted, but the current 3 series is a far better car then the E30 series ever thought it could be. Its faster, handles better, stops better and it far better in ride.
I love hearing people talk about how great the 60s muscles were, they were pigs, they were slow and they couldn't stop to save lives.
2011 Mustang GT V8 makes more HP then a 69 Mustang Boss 302, faster then a Boss 302, and gets better fuel mileage then the 69 Boss 302.
#12056 of 16087 Re: In the market... [flightnurse]
Sep 18, 2011 (10:22 am)
"the current 3 series is a far better car then the E30 series ever thought it could be. Its faster, handles better, stops better and it far better in ride."
It's also soul-crushingly boring compared to the E30.
The E30 is a driver's car. The current 3 is a grocery getter.
#12057 of 16087 Re: In the market... [flightnurse]
Sep 18, 2011 (10:30 am)
The new cars are "better" in some ways, but they are simply not as good on mountain roads and zipping in and out of traffic. They weigh too much and their wheelbase is too long. They are simply not anything like the original sport sedans which BMW and Volvo made in the early 70s that created the whole segment.
It has gotten so bad that BMW was essentially forced to make the 1 series to remain competitive. The 1 series is at least pretty close to the E36, which is barely passable. A bit heavy, but workable with some weight reduction tricks and some aftermarket tweaks. I put the specs for the older E30, though, because it's really the benchmark for this class. Which every manufacturer seems to have simply ignored in the race to have more and more power. (same as the "Big 3" did in the 70s with Muscle cars).
Heavier than a Buick. That's just sad and as long as BMW keeps making cars that are heavier than rental-fodder Buicks, well, my comments about them being muscle cars stands.
Sep 18, 2011 (8:16 pm)
the question, regarding Buicks, has to do with what happens when one has an "incident" on the autobahn at 135 mph. The Germans are pretty good at analyzing the mess after wrecks of this sort, and making appropriate adjustments.
The U.S. regs address a whole different series of things, mostly having to do with fools who don't follow directions (side-impact, anyone?, or how about air bags to protect morons who won't use seat belts?), while the Germans assume people who drive know what they're doing. They just do it at high speed.
When the two are combined, Porky the Pig results.
What fun! Is it any wonder that most of the people who write articles and participate in the BMW club magazine (Roundel) drive older cars?
#12059 of 16087 Re: Well. . . [cdnpinhead]
Sep 19, 2011 (6:13 am)
All this old car new car stuff is getting boring- move on and get use to the new stuff or keeping driving in the nineties.
#12060 of 16087 Re: In the market... [plekto]
Sep 19, 2011 (8:59 am)
My conclusion of you is you haven't driven the cars in which you bash. I think you like to hear yourself ramble on about things you have no first hand knowledge.
As someone who had some of the "true muscle" of the 60s and 70s and currently drive a muscle car of today. I will never buy the older cars again, the cars today are much better put together (again I have first hand knowledge on this subject) they are faster, stop better and handle better.
So until you have first hand knowledge of the subject you talk about its all rambling from someone who has no idea what they are talking about.
#12061 of 16087 Re: In the market... [plekto]
Sep 19, 2011 (1:27 pm)
the most disturbing part is 20 years has gone by since 1991...
#12062 of 16087 Re: In the market... [plekto]
Sep 19, 2011 (2:18 pm)
That idea only stands in your head, no one else's or the auto industry. If you using weight as a big determining factor there is more than just that to classify a muscle car vs a sports sedan. They are sport sedans, every car magazine with a review about them call and classify them as such.