Last post on Dec 06, 2013 at 7:58 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#11517 of 16984 Re: spy shots of 2012 TL [plekto]
Sep 29, 2010 (2:23 am)
The problem is that, in this era of airbags, anti-crush passenger zones, and gizmo packed cars, I seriously doubt any company could build your "real sport sedan" for an affordable price.
FWIW #1, the 2011 328i weighs in at 3,362 pounds, only 165 pounds more than my 1999 328i. Not too shabby.
FWIW #2, the last time a 3-Series sedan with an I6 engine weighed 3,000 or less was 1991 (although the 1992 tipped the scales at 3,021 lbs.).
FWIW #3, given that the MUCH more capable 2011 328i weighs only 341 pounds more than the 1992 325i, I think BMW did a pretty good job at packaging all of the new safety requirements, structural integrity and extra size. Personally if I was given the option of the 1992 or the 2011, I'd choose the 2011 every time (although I would almost immediately chuck the RFTs in favor of a good set of GFTs, a move that will knock another 25 pounds of weight off the car).
#11518 of 16984 Re: spy shots of 2012 TL [shipo]
Sep 29, 2010 (3:22 am)
Not to mention...
'92 = 15.98lbs/hp and 16.69lbs/ft-lb. Peak torque 4700rpm. Mileage 19mpg average.
'11 = 14.62lbs/hp and 16.81lbs/ft-lb. Peak torque 2750rpm. Mileage 22mpg average.
And while I don't have the data to back it up, I'm pretty confident in saying a stock '11 would whoop a stock '92 around any track, even with the extra 300lbs. Progress ain't always a bad thing.
Now, don't get me wrong. I hate weight, too. Just can't have it all for a reasonable price, though.
#11519 of 16984 BMW 3 runflats [shipo]
Sep 29, 2010 (4:11 am)
‘. . . almost immediately chuck the RFTs in favor of a good set of GFTs, a move that will knock another 25 pounds of weight off the car).’
Have you driven a 2011?
Not having driven a 335 since I bought what I have now, I was rather impressed with the ride in 2 335iS [ coupes ] that I have recently driven – both with 19” runflats. I have read that the dampers were changed. The ride was quite acceptable – and noticeably better than I recall from driving 2009s.
Just one data point . . .
#11520 of 16984 Re: BMW 3 runflats [rayainsw]
Sep 29, 2010 (6:20 am)
The point is that no matter how much better the suspension gets at dealing with the extra unsprung weight of the RFTs, the ride and handling of the car will significantly improve by putting substanitally lighter GFTs on the car; and to a lesser degree, the acceleration and braking will improve as well.
#11521 of 16984 Re: BMW 3 runflats [shipo]
Sep 29, 2010 (6:26 am)
Does the 3 have a 'well' in the trunk for
a full sized spare?
#11522 of 16984 Re: BMW 3 runflats [rayainsw]
Sep 29, 2010 (7:13 am)
Nope, but the well looks large enough for a couple of cans of goo.
#11523 of 16984 Re: spy shots of 2012 TL [edwardsf]
Sep 29, 2010 (11:48 am)
I provided facts about the 3-Series not having the best highway mpg; by the way, those vehicles are the 3-Series competitors in price, features, size in some cases, etc if you do not think so then you do not know the entry-lux segment well at all: you can come up with all the excuses why your right but guess what, no one cares
You can use all the personal anecdotes you want from your own personal experience for mpg but what comes down to comparing between vehicles is what the epa and manufacturers say their fuel ratings are: why don't you provide a link about manufacturer discrepancies in mpg; I think its a bunch of bull b/c if anything, in the last 10 years, the epa and manufacturer mpg estimates have gotten pretty accurate a cross the board, compared to before that time, and I've seen this pretty consistently supported on all the personal avgs I've seen people report on the various auto boards I belong to; if you don't want to believe that, its your own problem.
you can't say that no one cars about personal reports of people's mpg experiences but then its okay to take the numbers reported personally from a group of a few dozen or a few hundreds, which is what your saying; its still not that big of a population size compared to the tens of thousands or hundred of thousand owners of these vehicles
There is no need to provide links and stats for my statement about prestige being a factor in BMW and MB purchases. This is real easy but you seem to not understand nor would I provide links since your going to just dismiss them and thus waste my time.
1) German vehicles have lower resale values then their Japanese counterparts (look at ALG for that one)
2) On a whole, the German manufacturers still do not have the long-term reliability and less problems their Japanese counterparts have ON AVERAGE (look at CR long-term reliability history charts specifically). Can also say, the chance of getting a problem littered German vehicle is still slightly higher than the chance of getting a problem littered Japanese vehicle
3) similar equipped BMW/MB and Japanese vehicles do not cost the same amount with the Germans having a few thousand price premium (just build them on each website with same equipment to find this out)
Those 3 FACTS indicate that, SIMILARLY EQUIPPED Japanese vs German luxury vehicles are giving the Japanese a better financial decision to get. But, there are a lot of people not choosing the Japanese vehicle and opting for the more expensive, more depreciating, higher chance possibility of problem littered German vehicle. Some people making that decision HAVE to be doing based on the prestige/ reputation factor that MB and BMW have.
Now, as you conveniently leave out every post you respond to and don't say, I've said time and time again, not ALL people are making that decision based on prestige, though you are trying to make it out that is what I'm saying; I've said before, some are making that decision for other reasons, like performance advantage, luxury comfort factors, etc but prestige is a factor. Maybe its not called prestige, maybe its called something else, you can make up your own word, I don't care, just get over it.
Again, you took my comment out of context that I said at the end of my post to try and make it appear I'm anti-German and that couldn't be further from the truth
#11524 of 16984 Re: spy shots of 2012 TL [plekto]
Sep 29, 2010 (1:33 pm)
If you want a real sport sedan experience, you need three components(manual is a given):
1 - RWD
2 - Inline engine, preferably an I-6 or turbo 4 180-200HP minimum.
3 - curb weight under 3000lbs. Preferably 2800.
My 318ti Club Sport comes close; 2700 lbs. and 150 bhp. In a few years I'm going to fit a stroker motor that will up the power to around 220 bhp. I have to say I really like light tossable cars- my old 2002 may be a tad bit slow but with less than 2400 lbs. to carry around it is a real blast on a winding road.
#11525 of 16984 Re: spy shots of 2012 TL [smarty666]
Sep 29, 2010 (5:36 pm)
"Those 3 FACTS indicate that, SIMILARLY EQUIPPED Japanese vs German luxury vehicles are giving the Japanese a better financial decision to get."
The problem I see with this statement is that they are not similarly equipped.
I know you're talking about heated this, and bluetooth that, but much of the value in a European car is not in the bells and whistles, it's in the engineering.
I can go to KMart and buy a wood veneer dining room set for $500 that looks and functions a lot like a $2000 Ethan Allen set. Which one is the better value?
I guess it all comes down to how much "value" one places in having an in-line 6 engine, superb steering feel, and near-perfect chassis balance vs. 19" wheels, iPod integration, and a 30GB hard drive.
I know which features I prefer...
And, by the way, the days of the true "sport sedan" are long gone and not coming back. But this thread isn't about sport sedans anyways - it's about entry-level luxury sport sedans. Big difference. Mentioning sport sedans in this thread is simply off-topic.
#11526 of 16984 Re: spy shots of 2012 TL [fedlawman]
Sep 29, 2010 (6:08 pm)
I just lament the growth in size of these vehicles. I have an '05 TL and it is bigger than I like. My next car is going to be smaller. IMHO the new TSX is also way too big.
I had a '98 A4 and it was just fabulous. But even that car has bloated up.
I know it is OT, but have you seen the ugliness and the increased size of the new Jetta? OMG.