Last post on May 09, 2013 at 9:32 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#11104 of 16087 Re: Performance? Luxury? Toyota? Honda? LOL [kdshapiro]
Feb 04, 2010 (10:25 pm)
TCO has a huge problem with it.
1: Depreciation isn't a factor in comparing cost to fix/repair/upkeep a vehicle. Also, neither is stuff like insurance. Yes, it matters, but not to compare which vehicles are the least expensive to keep running(you really only lose money when you sell the car, if you ever do - or to be more accurate, you only GET BACK the difference in depreciation when/if you sell it)
2: The first years where the factory warranty is in place artificially skew the results. BMW comes out well by this measure because it does cost you nothing to keep the car running, or nearly so. But try that with a 5 year old BMW...
TCO is pretty worthless, really.
Just looking at the data I posted - if you go back to 2005, you'll see Lexus is taking about half of the spots. Infiniti and Cadillac vastly improved their quality since then and Lexus slipped a bit down to where Honda/Acura is.(still very good, especially if you get a car with manual)
The problem is that costs to fix things is skyrocketing. A replacement transmission in a Camry, for instance, runs over $3500 now. That's just silly. Bumpers and other components that get scuffed or cracked are hideously expensive. Want to replace a Toyota or BMW or well, almost ANY car's headlight assembly?
So if one company can come in with less frequency and/or less cost per part than the competition, it wins. Mercedes, Audi, and BMW flat-out fail here. Volvo is also notoriously pricey to fix. Acura and Infiniti are a bit better, as is Cadillac(they take grief about not using the best newest tech, but then again, that's less stuff to break as well) Toyota just has problems recently and I'd not recommend anything with an automatic or ETC(electronic throttle control) on it from them.(that's 80%+ of their line currently.
#11105 of 16087 Re: Performance? Luxury? Toyota? Honda? LOL [plekto]
Feb 09, 2010 (10:06 am)
Want to replace a Toyota or BMW or well, almost ANY car's headlight assembly?
Gives me a flash back to last year when I wrote off my Q45 (wasn't that bad of an accident). ONE headlight assembly came in over $1200...ouch
#11106 of 16087 Re: Performance? Luxury? Toyota? Honda? LOL [plekto]
Feb 09, 2010 (11:04 am)
There's that expression again, lies, damn lies and statistics. You get to pick your metric and make your case based on your metric. There is no getting around it, the more expensive the car the more it costs to own.
For example: In my area a rebuilt G35 tranny is almost $2K, but a rebuilt Camry tranny is $700. Not sure where you get your figures from. A headlight assembly for a G37 is nearly $800. Ouch.
If you are saying an Infiniti tranny breaks less often than a Camry tranny after the warranty period, you would have to point to some credible source for me to believe it. Not just a CR survey.
But it still boils down to will *your* car have an issue, and if it does what will it take to repair it. My BMW can be cheaper to own on a parts basis against a used Accord if nothing breaks on it and the Accord is constantly under repair.
#11107 of 16087 Re: Performance? Luxury? Toyota? Honda? LOL [kdshapiro]
Feb 09, 2010 (2:15 pm)
I suppose if the rebuilt Camry transmission is a generation or two old and has no warranty and is out of some shop in the middle of the industrial section of town, you MIGHT find one for $700. But here in Los Angeles, a 4-5 year old Camry automatic is well over $3000 by the time you write the final check. The best I could find locally was $2100 with a warranty, not counting labor, shipping, tax(etc) and a core charge. The CTS transmission was only $1600. Now $500 might not be a huge amount to some people, but that's more than I spent last year on maintainance on my 4x4.
With that sort of potential repair and the issues that keep coming up(plus the new Prius recall, now!) I can't recommend Toyota other than for their trucks.
#11108 of 16087 Re: Performance? Luxury? Toyota? Honda? LOL [plekto]
Feb 09, 2010 (3:10 pm)
Who buys a new transmission? Almost nobody? It must be a regional thing. The numbers I cited were local. It must be a supply and demand issue in the LA area, which is a very narrow slice of information to make a broad generalization on.
The other potential reason for the difference is that CTS trannies may be crap, you get what you pay for.
I have no problems with Toyota, I would buy any of their cars in a heartbeat, recalls or not, doesn't bother me in the least. I really like the Camry SE and am mulling over buying it.
#11109 of 16087 Re: Performance? Luxury? Toyota? Honda? LOL [plekto]
Feb 09, 2010 (8:04 pm)
"... Toyota just has problems recently and I'd not recommend anything with an automatic or ETC(electronic throttle control) on it from them.(that's 80%+ of their line currently. "
Couldn't agree more. Throw in transmission hesitation. I had a hesitating 2005 V6 Highlander. You could never pinpoint when it would happen but it did several times a day. I reached the end of my rope when it had a full 2 second hesitation while highway passing. When it kicked in I almost had whiplash the car took off so fast. Very dangerous. It was dumped after 1 year as the TSB didn't work. I was done after 21 years of loyalty and great vehicles. The worst part being Toyota refusing to acknowledge the problem. To my knowledge it still exists. Finally, the Prius brake issue. Toyota has some quality control issues going on right now.
#11110 of 16087 Re: Performance? Luxury? Toyota? Honda? LOL [1bythesea]
Feb 10, 2010 (9:12 am)
I'm confused, why are the words, Toyota, Camry, and Highlander even doing in a el-lux performance sedan forum anyway? the words, luxury and performance don't even belong in the same discussion as Toyota
#11111 of 16087 Re: Performance? Luxury? Toyota? Honda? LOL [smarty666]
Feb 10, 2010 (9:57 am)
You have to read the threads, there was an assertion an Infinity G3x is cheaper to own than a Camry. Of course, based on the metric one choses it could be shown to be cheaper.
Hope this clarifies your confusion.
#11112 of 16087 Re: Performance? Luxury? Toyota? Honda? LOL [kdshapiro]
Feb 10, 2010 (12:14 pm)
wow, thats a weird question to ask? the tires alone make the G37 more expensive alone!
#11113 of 16087 Re: Performance? Luxury? Toyota? Honda? LOL [smarty666]
Feb 10, 2010 (1:18 pm)
I guess the reason they are included is because I see Toyota as "Toyota", since it's just one company in Japan - with 40 or so different vehicles ranging from econoboxes for the poor to luxury cars and even military transport vehicles and commercial equipment. Also, many of the "Lexus" models share DNA and parts with the more common vehicles, which is where the problem is right now. Toyota isn't admitting it, but OF COURSE Lexus models are also going to be affected.
That said, manual transmission Toyota/Lexus models are fine. They have no computers in the way and are as solid as a tank. The same can be said tor Mercedes as well. *If* you get a C or E class sedan with manual(yes, I know, only automatics normally make it over here in the U.S.), they are extremely reliable cars. Stripped of all of the electronic junk and transmission and throttle and everything else that tries to out-think you, they are perfectly fine vehicles.
Now, the real question I guess is what out there that is a "luxury car" doesn't have all of that technological garbage applied to it? I'm unfortunately having a hard time getting any names on my list, as least for stuff that I can buy in the U.S.