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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

11073 messages,  Last post on Jul 16, 2009 at 1:47 PM

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What is this discussion about? BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G35, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Lexus IS 250, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan

#10791 of 11073 Lexus or Audi Discssion by plekto Mar 14, 2008 (1:03 pm)
I've come to the conclusion that the best car for the OP is actually none of the above.   He wants something affordable and sporty and luxury, that's also reliable and gets good gas mileage. Unfortunately, they stopped making this car 2-3 years ago, but that's fine, because used like-new examples run about $20K.   Get a Mercedes C230K Sedan with manual. This is the *4 door* sedan with the 1.8 supercharged engine in it. It was the exact same model that they sell in Europe(slightly larger engine) and is actually fairly reliable. Mercedes makes two types of cars. Cars and Taxis/Rentals. The way you can tel the difference is if it comes with stick-shift, since 90% of Germans get a license that allows them to drive manuals. If you are one of the 10% that gets an automatic-only license, you are literally laughed at and considered to be a child driver.   Mercedes puts no effort into their fleet sales and models, and especially their automatic transmissions. Just enough to get by and no more(S class aside of course). This is why an E class, well, *is* a Taxi in 90% of the world. And it's why their SUVs suck. They are made for basically U.S. markets and taxis.(see a pattern? heh)   In Europe, it's all about the A, B, and C class. Manuals are the norm and diesels are better. The closer Mercedes you buy to this sort of vehicle, the better it will drive and last.   In Europe, it's called the C200 Kompressor and is a great car. Unfortunately, you have to go back to the previous generation in the U.S. to get that engine.   Of course, the BEST Mercedes is this: C 220 CDI 4-cylinder 190 hp 460 Nm If we got this over here, it would obliterate the entry-level segment. 460Nm is an outrageous amount of torque, and 190HP is equal to the IS250. All while getting 30+ mpg.   http://autocar-show.blogspot.com/2007/06/first-drive-experience-mercedes-c220.ht- ml Bummer we can't get it here... ****   Now, if you're looking for automatic(sigh), get couple of year old IS300. This car has the IS250's looks and feel, yet is lighter and lots more powerful, plus it has a nice I-6 engine as well. It'll blow the doors off of a new IS250 or A4 in overall driving, and is somewhat useable in the rear for kids.   Note - while the IS300 was good, it honestly reminded me exactly of the Volvo 850, but with RWD instead of FWD. It had a very "European" feel to it. Something abot the balance and suspension and size and all the rest - it felt better than the base 3 series.   The Lexus messed up. they made a compromise version that's honestly not any better than the stuff GM puts out, and they put a mega-speed transmission and a V6 in the IS350 in a quest for power, when all it did as turn it into a muscle car.   Remember, the original luxury performance sedan was... a BMW 2002. Light, agile, and well rounded are musts. Bloat, muscle-car power, and in search for a purpose... that's most modern cars.   Or you can get a classic. There's no shame in driving a classic car. Replies to this message: louiswei (Mar 14, 2008 1:45 pm)
#10792 of 11073 Re: Lexus or Audi Discssion [plekto] by louiswei Mar 14, 2008 (1:45 pm)
Replying to: plekto (Mar 14, 2008 1:03 pm) they put a mega-speed transmission and a V6 in the IS350 in a quest for power, when all it did as turn it into a muscle car.   For some reason MB agrees with Lexus' strategy as they are doing exactly the same thing with the new C-class.
#10793 of 11073 Re: Will Choices Change ? [alltorque] by cdnpinhead Mar 14, 2008 (2:00 pm)
Replying to: alltorque (Mar 14, 2008 9:08 am) ". . .once you guys get the full range of Euro/Japanese diesels."   As if. . .   I can guarantee you that the car I bought this week would have been different if we had access here in the land of the EPA and the state of California to "the full range of Euro/Japanese diesels." I don't think it's ever going to happen, but I'll be very happy to be wrong.   Bring me a 2.0 - 2.5 litre turbodiesel with a manual transmission & RWD with room enough in the back (fold-down seats or wagon/avant) for my bicycle, and I'll be happy. Several vehicles which meet these requirements have been available in Europe for over six years that I know of, but aren't here even yet.
#10794 of 11073 Re: Price Reduction [gooddeal2] by shipo Mar 14, 2008 (2:06 pm)
Replying to: gooddeal2 (Mar 14, 2008 1:03 pm) "If I put 800 miles/week, I will be worry more about the depreciation than the gas. 800 miles/week x 52 weeks = 41600 miles/year = a lot of depreciation. I rather buy a small/sport economy car (~18K) instead of a luxury car."   Yup, one of the several reasons why the 530i went back to BMW-FS at lease end, and why, instead of replacing it, I chose to drive our old "spare car" (home depot/dump run hack with ~80,000 on the clock at the time) for the duration of that contract. During the 21 months that I serviced that client I put on just shy of 80,000 miles in spite of the fact that I was occasionally traveling and it sat in the garage.   I'm now in the market for a new contract, and the two companies that seem to be the most likely candidates will have my mileage drop to a more normal 15,000 to 20,000 miles per year. Assuming one of those two actually happen, I'm thinking the 2009 Audi A3 (which will have the new "clean-sheet design" EA 888 engine), with a 6-Speed manual of course. The only rub with that car is that it is "wrong wheel drive", however, it does sport a spare tire well complete with a donut spare (but room for a full size wheel/tire), a jack, real GFTs, a dip-stick tube for checking/changing the oil, and room in the back to schlep around our new mutt.   The flip side is that the company I was with for those 21 months is, A) talking of giving me another juicy contract, and B) has moved their offices some 20 miles further (each way) from our home. If I end up back there, geez, I'm thinking either a new Honda Civic EX-L 6-Speed or a 2009 Jetta TDI 6-Speed, cars I can put 100,000 miles on in two years and not suffer too much from the depreciation.   Best Regards, Shipo
#10795 of 11073 Diesels Rock by nyccarguy Mar 14, 2008 (3:37 pm)
I'd buy a BMW diesel in a heartbeat if I were in the market. As blueguydotcom said, diesel costs a bit more up front and a bit more to fill up, but you get tremendous range and they last forever and a day. It is amazing how quiet modern diesels are. One of my customers has a Freighliner Sprinter with an MB CDI engine in it and you can barely hear it idling from 5 feet away.   By the time I'm ready to pickup a new car for me, BMW will hopefull get their wits about them and offer a diesel with a stick shift. I'm a manual transmission bigot like shipo Replies to this message: circlew (Mar 14, 2008 5:23 pm) chirocat (Mar 14, 2008 9:37 pm)
#10796 of 11073 Re: Will Choices Change ? [blueguydotcom] by circlew Mar 14, 2008 (5:16 pm)
Replying to: blueguydotcom (Mar 14, 2008 12:27 pm) Blueguy, what about the driving dynamics of the 3? You were not overjoyed with the '06 330i. I assume not much difference in the 335d. Would you still give it a shot (if MT gets built in)?   I remember that the actual mileage of the d is around 28 - 30 mpg combined for the US version but I have also read Euro versions of 37 mpg.   Regards, OW Replies to this message: blueguydotcom (Mar 14, 2008 9:18 pm) circlew (Mar 15, 2008 7:32 am)
#10797 of 11073 Re: Diesels Rock [nyccarguy] by circlew Mar 14, 2008 (5:23 pm)
Replying to: nyccarguy (Mar 14, 2008 3:37 pm) I don't mind the AT but the better half would destroy it. The AT is good for me anyway.   I would consider the d along with the 3'er on my ext leas in December. You guys are steering me but I wonder the cost trade-off if the d runs in the low $50'sK verse ~ $47K I could get a NA version. The one I drove was a rush compared to the 255 hp 330.   The diesel twist is very tempting also but I need to get a better handle on the drive difference on the power curve vs. each variant. Once the fuel savings is measured vs. price and driving pleasure I can make a move after testing each one.   My next monkey wrench is the 1 series thrown into the mix! I am reeling but the availability of the d might make my decision easier and the one will be well documented by year end.   Regards, OW
#10798 of 11073 Re: Will Choices Change ? [circlew] by blueguydotcom Mar 14, 2008 (9:18 pm)
Replying to: circlew (Mar 14, 2008 5:16 pm) When I consider a 3 again it'll mean a kid is on the way I have to have a car bigger than the cooper. For the sake of having a vehicle that can fit the family, I'd suck it up. The far better mileage of the diesel really raises my eyebrow. I love the idea of 30 mpg and 16 gallons...stopping for gas every 1.5-2 weeks sound great! Replies to this message: circlew (Mar 15, 2008 7:32 am)
#10799 of 11073 Re: Diesels Rock [nyccarguy] by chirocat Mar 14, 2008 (9:37 pm)
Replying to: nyccarguy (Mar 14, 2008 3:37 pm) Count me in as well. I remember seeing a magazine article on a Tuner 330d and 530d a few years ago, and it was damn impressive. Impressive enough is this CD article, it says volumes. Near gas performance with up to 40 mpg? Cool!   check this out;   http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/high_performance/performance_files- _tested_by_c_d/2006_bmw_330d_road_test   When I was looking for car last year I was a total manual trans biggot and actually sneered audibly at any "performance" sedan on the lot that had an auto.   I only considered 2 cars that were not manuals; a R32 with DSG, can't call it an automatic if it doesn't have a torque converter though, and a pre-owned C55. The badass V-8 in that Q-ship almost made up for the lack of a clutch.   Hopefully America will pull it's collective heads out and realize diesels are not what we saw in the crude 80's gas conversion crap? IMHO all trucks 3/4 ton and over plus large SUV's should all be diesel. If we had more diesels, maybe the price of the damn gas would come down because they would have to refine more and can't artificially keep the price up with that old "supply" rhetoric.
#10800 of 11073 Re: Will Choices Change ? [blueguydotcom] by circlew Mar 15, 2008 (7:32 am)
Replying to: blueguydotcom (Mar 14, 2008 9:18 pm) I knew you had at least some satisfaction form the E90 bloated version of what you would consider the ultimate sports sedan. More than my eyebrows raised with the torque numbers. I gotta try that equation for myself.   My problem with test drives is the limited feel you get from driving a few miles. The 335i I drove for 1 day ~ 40 miles was much more of a drive to understand the car. It's an easy sell for me because the extra weight doesn't bother me as I am accustomed to US fare, sloppier handling and control. Stepping into the '06 3'er did it for me.   Now if I can get 30 MPG, it just depends on the cost trade off of a lease verse the efficiency gain.   Regards, Ow

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