Last post on Dec 06, 2013 at 7:58 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#10336 of 16984 Re: C'mon people [pat]
Sep 23, 2007 (4:23 pm)
Agreed. This forum is supposed to be about things that most of us enjoy as a passtime, or certainly a drivetime. Manufacturers compete for our dollars fiercely in this space and like most things concerning marketing, most of us are conditioned to preferences after a while, even decending into "fanboyism". I admit it, I have preferences with certain brands over others. But I want all of them to deliver the best product possible since it's impossible for the products from one brand to satisfy everyone. After all, if everyone just bought "your favorite brand", it would be a pretty boring place.
Regarding the two brands at issue here, Cadillac has been going down this "Europeanism" trend for a long time before the CTS, often with lousy results. I can remember the 1976 Seville, the 1982 Cimarron, the 1989 Allante and the 1997 Catera as examples. Cadillac has had the unenvyable position of trying to rewrite their DNA for decades now, which isn't easy. Even with Bob Lutz at the helm, a former GM engine manager once told me that GM's corporate culture doesn't do much to reward risk...in fact, the company (and especially Cadillac) got very risk averse over the last 30 years. Witness the 1981 V8-6-4 engine failure, the 1982 Cimarron, the 1989 Allante and Catera projects all made Caddy very adverse making the product decisions they need to make.
Constrast that with BMW. The BMW we all know really got off the ground in the early '70s with the first 2002s. Originally in the shadow of Mercedes and Audi, they made their mark with great handling sedans and coupes that were contrary to what most American buyers were used to seeing. Were all these products successful? Not a chance. The 320 program of the early '80s (especially the 320e) weren't home run hits. The 12-cylinder 850s lanquished on dealer lots and recent models were fiercely criticized for Bangle styling and iDrive. But the path to where BMW is now has been fairly straightforward to the point where they command many of the segments they compete in.
In business, it's interesting to watch the players that do most everything right but its far more fun and educational to see the ones that were once powerful fall from grace and claw themselves back to relevance. Apple Computer is a classic example. Cadillac is trying to do the same thing (against bigger odds in my opinion). What happens next? Who knows? But the marketplace will decide.
#10337 of 16984 Re: C'mon people [sevenfeet0]
Sep 23, 2007 (4:34 pm)
". . .the 1976 Seville, the 1982 Cimarron, the 1989 Allante and the 1997 Catera. . ."
I was around for all of these, but only paid attention to the Catera. Prior to that, I was driving sports cars & wouldn't have been caught dead in a Cadillac.
Now, I'm not so sure.
#10338 of 16984 Re: C'mon people [cdnpinhead]
Sep 24, 2007 (3:50 am)
I was driving sports cars & wouldn't have been caught dead in a Cadillac.
Now, I'm not so sure.
That's a fair statement. But you would be caught behind in one! At lease for now.
I back up that view since there is no better performing car offered by GM/Chryler/Ford compared to the 3 series in the sedan class, IMO. And I will admit I always considered the E36/46 were to small for my tastes predominantly because I was used to U.S. market fare. I believed the Buy America was the way to go until it made little sense at the end of the day. I was surprised at the weight of my 330 considering the compact designation, however. I guess BMW compromised from the original design strategy. But the suspension still is to die for. I could care less for the perceived image factor. You could slice off the roundel and it would still be in my garage.
I agree it is fun to see what the "Hurtin' Three" will do to put the train back on the tracks. The Camaro and Challenger coming back from the dead will be interesting.
For GM, Cadillac needs a heck of a lot more work to do. Buick/Pontiac is on life support and the prognosis is NOT good. Chevy holds their own as does GMC for the small car/Trucks. Imagine if pick-ups loose huge sales. What then?
Ford???? I guess the plug has been pulled but the body is not cold yet.
It would be nice to see all three come back but I won't hold my breath. Lot's of changes still need to be made. The competition is killing them all.
#10339 of 16984 Re: Disappointed by 2008 CTS [scottm123]
Sep 24, 2007 (5:13 am)
The standard engine comes with the manual as standard equipment. The direct injection engine comes with automatic standard, BUT there is a "delete automatic" code that allows you to get the manual, and provides a deduction from the vehicle price.
#10340 of 16984 Re: C'mon people [circlew]
Sep 24, 2007 (5:58 am)
I can't wait to see the new Camaro and Challenger on the streets.
I'm sure they're a blast to drive, but they won't fit into this segment at all.
Pontiac also have the G8 coming out, which is also offering a 360+ HP V8... but have you seen the interior??? Yuck!
I've built R/C cars as a kid showing higher levels of quality.
Ford and GM offer nothing within the EL"L"PS that intrigues me.
I'm too busy watching Lexus, Infiniti, BMW, and Audi to see what they'll be doing next.
#10341 of 16984 Re: C'mon people [scottm123]
Sep 24, 2007 (6:39 am)
And as long as GM and Ford sell enormous numbers of larger cars and SUVs - well over half of their entire production, why should they get stuck trying to make a small luxury car?
Every time that they have done it, it's been a flop and/or hasn't made them a dime and only hurt their image. The closest that they have come is Volvo and Saab's offerings.
But designing to compete in the ELLPS market? I can't blame them for running from it as fast as they can.
#10342 of 16984 Re: C'mon people [plekto]
Sep 24, 2007 (6:55 am)
Why should they make any cars at all? They are all inferior, IMHO.
#10343 of 16984 2008 CTS Sales Handicap
Sep 24, 2007 (10:14 am)
Looks like a slow start is on tap for Caddy and the CTS...unless Lexus or BMW can be enticed to bow as outsource partners!!!
UAW Calls National Strike Against GM
DETROIT (AP) -- Thousands of United Auto Workers walked off the job at General Motors plants around the country Monday in the first nationwide strike against the U.S. auto industry since 1976.
Ah, yes, let's see...1976, just 5 years into the product downturn. I remember it well.
#10344 of 16984 Re: 2008 CTS Sales Handicap [circlew]
Sep 24, 2007 (12:41 pm)
Hopefully the GM plant that produces the automatic transmissions for BMW is on strike as well. Probably not that lucky, though.
#10345 of 16984 Re: 2008 CTS Sales Handicap [pucks]
Sep 24, 2007 (1:43 pm)
I don't believe that GM is producing BMW automatic transmission any longer. IIRC, all BMW automatics are now built by ZF.