Last post on Dec 04, 2013 at 8:41 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#10325 of 16982 Re: Fly on the wall [fedlawman]
Sep 21, 2007 (4:50 pm)
Good points, but here is a good snip-it that hits home for the CTS in my view:
Since The General has been unable to build small cars profitably since, um, ever, the company also knew that the Cadillac brand represented a mission-critical large passenger car profit center. So GM dedicated their new high-end Sigma rear wheel-drive platform exclusively to a line of premium sedans (CTS, STS) and a crossover (SRX). With lots of bragging about Nürburgring chassis fettling, the BMW 3-Series fighter CTS was the first out of the box.
The press gave the CTS rave reviews. After a sluggish start, sales peaked in 2005 at 61k units. Sales in ’06 are off 11 percent. Year-to-date (YTD) ’07 they’re down 27 percent. Anticipation of the redesigned ’08 CTS is keeping some intenders’ powder dry, but it’s clear the model still hasn’t found its happy place.
I really do not think this model will prevail in the market but we will see. I particularly do not like the styling and judging from the age demographics that the Top GM brand has claimed over the years, IMO, sales will continue to slide to the competition.
In other words, does ANYONE really think this model will devlop into a top sales leader in this category?? I can't help thinking: Catera...
#10326 of 16982 Re: Are you guys related to.... [shipo]
Sep 21, 2007 (5:46 pm)
I tolerated Rocky's s(tuff) for the entire time it was presented, awaiting reviews of the actual car. Well, here we are and where's Rocky? I'm tempted to waltz over to the boards where he still posts & ask him to please come back and defend his rhetoric.
I think it's interesting to support the vehicle of your choice with (wait for it). . .data, or failing that, test-drive impressions from someone who has actually driven the vehicles involved.
The posters I've found most interesting/useful over the past several years have shown an evenhanded approach. Sevenfeet is my CTS guru, you're the BMW guy (among others) and Scott's the G person; there are others who speak from experience regarding the other Infinitis, Merc & the rest.
Shills need not apply.
#10327 of 16982 Re: Are you guys related to.... [cdnpinhead]
Sep 21, 2007 (9:00 pm)
Okay, I went to the dealer again this morning. I looked at a CTS with the performance package and nothing else. I sat in it for 10 minutes and carefully thought things out.
1:The sunroof DOES take up three inches of headroom in the front and two in the rear. Without it, it's a very nice car. Feels very spacious, yet narrow. The exact same feeling Volvo had a decade ago in its 850. Very nice, actually - a large 2+2 seating arrangement. Halfway between the 3 and 5, which seems to be a good place.
2:The seats. They were the non-fold down type. I sat in it and thought for a while. I realized that the car was perfect for someone in less than 5'10". The cramped feeling was an illusion.
The problem is the rear pillars. They curve inward an inch or two because of the rear seat side airbags(which most cars don't have, allowing for straight pillars). In addition, the rear door sils are very high, so you feel like you are sitting down in the rear. But it's an illusion. The car actually is identical to the other smaller cars in the rear. It fits two normal adults nicely enough. IMO, Cadillac should have made the door sils 2 inches lower to solve this, but it's probably govt crash regulations that are feeding this tall door/small window insanity.
#10328 of 16982 Re: Fly on the wall [fedlawman]
Sep 22, 2007 (4:12 am)
The car doesn't appeal to me for a number of reasons (size, weight, bling factor), but I respect that it doesn't try to beat BMW at their own game.
It's not a matter of beating BMW at their own game.
It is a matter of putting out a seriously competent competitor, however they decide to position it relative to the other competiotrs. The Corvette is one of the least likely cars to ever make it into my garage, over a 911 or 430. But I respect that, for what it does, it is a very competent car. Cadillac has never, and still doesn't, garnish any of the same respect.
I would also respectfully suggest that, before you extrapolate what "Americans" want, if the new CTS were built by a Japanese company, they would likely sell about 5 in the entire U.S. I think without the "buy American" loyalty, GM would have been completely bankrupt a decade ago.
#10329 of 16982 Re: Fly on the wall [habitat1]
Sep 22, 2007 (6:39 am)
"I think without the "buy American" loyalty,"
I clearly have a buy American loyalty and would if:
1. I could find a product that was made, designed and built 100% in America by Americans, in companies headquartered in America (not saying companies can't import raw materials not found in the US)
2. Product is as good and hopefully better as non-American products,
3. Cost is competitive.
In general, sadly the "Made In America" moniker has been reduced to meaning the "Made In America" stamp is stamped in America.
#10330 of 16982 Re: Fly on the wall [habitat1]
Sep 22, 2007 (7:30 am)
"It is a matter of putting out a seriously competent competitor, however they decide to position it relative to the other competiotrs."
I respect your opinion, but I find it hard to believe that the new CTS is as inferior in design and performance as you say it is. Since I haven't seen or driven it for myself yet, I will not confirm or refute your opinions until I do.
"I would also respectfully suggest that, before you extrapolate what "Americans" want, if the new CTS were built by a Japanese company, they would likely sell about 5 in the entire U.S."
I disagree. Again, without commenting on the performance of the CTS (since I have not driven it), I think Toyota is a great example of a Japanese company building cars that Americans want. I cringe every time I see a Solara - or how about the Solara GT I saw a middle-aged man driving the other day!
"I think without the "buy American" loyalty, GM would have been completely bankrupt a decade ago."
I think it's GM's pricing structure and incentives that have sold their cars, not brand loyalty. But today, I see GM finally making real progress with Cadillac, Saturn, and GMC/Chevy trucks.
Only time will tell - and I'll try to check out the CTS this weekend and report back with my opinion.
#10331 of 16982 Re: Fly on the wall [kdshapiro]
Sep 22, 2007 (9:32 am)
I expect to see this label soon:
Outsourced in America
Sep 22, 2007 (11:34 am)
I do like the CTS, I will certainly consider one in early 2008, assuming they (GM) offer discounts and subvented leases as they have done time and again.
At the MSRP "as I would configure" the CTS, it is a fine car but -- other than fit and finish and its styling -- it "seems to be as current as many of the other guys were putting out in the second half of 2004."
For a typical second or third quarter GM discount, however, it will be attractive even to someone like me who thinks it is not exactly leading edge (although the DI engine seems very fine, indeed.)
On the issue of voice activation -- I have a current gen Audi A6. It has 82 buttons, knobs, switches, dials, gauges and/or controls (not including my phone.) I have the in-armrest mounted phone dock AND the thing has bluetooth. I rarely, due to the the in armrest cradle, activate bluetooth -- but I use the voice control for the audio, nav and telephone system -- almost literally every time I get into the car.
I consider it a safety feature.
Were a vote be presented to the voters of the US, I would, uncharacteristically, vote to ban the use of a cell phone in a car that was not entirely voice controlled (hand and eyes free.)
When I am driving, I often look at the other drivers on the road; I see the majority of them on the phone (driving with one hand and I assume one eye on the road and controls.)
Much as I want "you" to have the personal freedom to kill yourself by using a phone while driving (if that is your goal), I just don't want to be on the highway with you.
Much as I want (well, maybe) more knobs and buttons and dials and gizmos to be confronting me whilst I am behind the wheel, it is getting to the point that it is distracting to change the channel (and find other controls in the sea of buttons) without voice command.
My wife's 2005 BMW does not need voice command. The new CTS is populated with buttons, dials, rotary switches -- a virtual maze of controls. Just tell your car what you want it to do, or "pull over" -- folks don't want to pull over and voice command is becoming (or in the case of the Germans, already has become) a virtual safety option.
At age 56, I may be a yuppie. Beats me.
#10334 of 16982 1 series interior space
Sep 23, 2007 (3:30 am)
Has anyone sat in a 1 series yet? Im 6'1 and just wondering if i can fit in this car. What about passenger space?