Last post on Dec 12, 2013 at 7:09 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#10095 of 16985 Re: Speaking of brake dust... [blueguydotcom]
Aug 01, 2007 (3:56 am)
BMW builds fun cars. That's the only positive thing I can say about the company....
No it's all about the drive, friend. I bought another VW (Audi actually) even though my only experience with VWAG was awful too. I place driving pleasure above all else. So if I spend 20-30 days without my car per year it's worth it.
With all due respect, I don't think your experiences with BMW are typical, or the penalty you are willing to pay for personal priorities is necessary.
Within my social and business circles I know a large number of people that own Lexus, BMW, Mercedes and all of the other premium brands. I don't know of a single BMW owner that, in order to enjoy the "driving pleasure" of BMW, expects that they will need to be without their car an extra 5-10 days a year, let alone 20 or 30. These are law partners, doctors, and corporate execs that don't have the time or tolerance for such B.S. Even those that drive M5's and M3's.
Maybe 30 years ago "driving pleasure" meant you had to be prepared to go without your car for a month a year. And maybe that's also why Alfa Romeos, Fiats, MGs, and some of those other "pleasurable" brands aren't around anymore.
But it's 2007. Porsche supplanted Lexus as #1 in the IQS, And my former Honda S2000, arguably about as "pleasurable" as you can get for under $40k was also tops in reliability and resale. You can have your cake and eat it too, today. I sincerely hope your experience with your Audi and Mini prove you wrong and you're not without them for 20-30 days annually. Because if I wasn't willing to accept that kind of trade off on a 911, you sure as hell shouldn't have to on them. There are plenty of other good choices in their categories.
#10096 of 16985 Re: Speaking of brake dust... [dontbuylexus]
Aug 01, 2007 (4:01 am)
"They always patched tires for me free of charge too. Lexus made me buy a new, unpatchable tire (run flat) for $250"
Something seems odd about this since the Lexus IS does not come with run-flats. So if they "made" you (how can anyone make you is a whole different story) then you would have 3 non run-flats and one run-flat. Now BMW's include run-flats which many a BMW owner has complained about and spent their own money shortly after buying replacing them.
If it is true, then the dealership is the worst in the world (possible) or you are stretching the truth in order to bash Lexus even more.
PS - My dealership patched my tire after getting a slow leak. Gave me a RX loaner so I could travel to then next County and make a meeting.
People on this board has complained about persistent problems and denials by BMW that went on for years. Does their experiences count as well as yours since you stated that these forums are the only truth? Does that now make Lexus and BMW even as "baby Enrons" Or you only selective in determining a good and bad company? If BMW is good because your experience than Lexus is good based on mine.
#10097 of 16985 Re: banner ads [dontbuylexus]
Aug 01, 2007 (4:16 am)
"I notice that in this forum, there are more BMW ads and in the "IS250/350 prices paid and buying experience" forum there are only Lexus ads (understandably). But in here I can say how I had a bad experience with my IS, but in there, they remove the posting right away. My guess is pressure from their advertiser. Lexus would not like bad things said in a buying forum. Nor would any auto maker, but if it is true then how controlling does Lexus have to be to sell cars. If the car is so great, it would sell itself."
Who shot JFK?
Maybe it is since you were posting over and over again the same thing and in the wrong forums. I guess you made it a goal to respond to every Lexus IS post and try to convince them that Lexus is bad.
#1939 of 1948 Re: Posts about maintenance costs / ownership moved [dontbuylexus] by Sylvia STAFF Jul 29, 2007 (6:03 pm)
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Replying to: dontbuylexus (Jul 29, 2007 12:23 pm)
Fantastic. You have made your point many times and now it is for others to talk about the prices they have been quoted and how the dealer treated them. The best place to reiterated your issues with Lexus so that people researching if it is the right vehicle for them is in the discussion created about maintenance costs.
If you want to write more about your dealership experiences, please do write a Dealer Rating & Review by clicking on the banner at the top of the page. Also, if you haven't done so already, please also submit a review about your vehicle at http://www.edmunds.com/apps/ratings/ratingsIndex.jsp?usein=n
The staff told you that the point was made and to give others a chance to talk without refuting everything. Even gave you the proper place to rate your dealership since that is where your problem seems to be. Now you come here and wonder why (after being told) you are being shut out.
Clue - it is not a big conspiracy, but the reflection in the mirror.
#10098 of 16985 Re: seems to me... [dontbuylexus]
Aug 01, 2007 (5:52 am)
"I do care about the 2mm of dishing on my rotors after 20k, then a dealer cost of $600 for new ones."
$600 for Lexus rotors!?!? Thank goodness for the internet, huh?
Cars today have more HP and weight than ever before, and brakes have to perform much better than they did just a few years ago. The dishing of the rotor (great photo, by the way) is typical on most European high performance cars - my wife's '04 Volvo station wagon had about that much lip on the rotors at 20k miles (I'm at 50k miles now and still going).
It's not a defect or damage - the pads and rotors are engineered to work together to provide both cold initial bite and high temperature fade resistance. A tall order for a 3500 lb luxury/performance car. Dusty pads and softer rotors are what it takes to deliver top of the line performance and safety.
Change the formula if you like (EBC and Centric), but only with the understanding that aftermarket suppliers may not know better than the factory engineers what works best on your car in all situations (cold, hot, wet, high speed, down hills, ABS/DSC, etc.). Also, how much R&D did EBC and Centric do with your particular car? With each other? Sure, your brakes will likely perform just fine (you probably won't even detect a difference), but they will no longer perform to "OE standards."
#10099 of 16985 Re: Speaking of brake dust... [habitat1]
Aug 01, 2007 (6:01 am)
With all due respect, I don't think your experiences with BMW are typical, or the penalty you are willing to pay for personal priorities is necessary.
I'd say the experience is directly in line with all of my co-workers, friends and family's experiences with BMW. From replaced trannies at 25k miles to bad HVAC to replaced window regulators, the stories of woe with BMW are constant around my office, friendly circles and family gatherings. Everybody I know personally with a BMW - well over 15 people - can point to at least one catastrophic failure of their car while under warranty. One guy's SMG wouldn't go into reverse, my bro-in-law's 3 series' manual went out at 25k miles, another buddy's automatic required a rebuild at 50k miles, another M3 driver had constant issues with his mirrors bubbling and distorting, etc. Constant niggling problems, dealer inefficiency and poor quality control/component engineering are the order of the day with BMW in my experience. I live in socal - they give away BMWs with a latte at Starbucks and thus the pool of people is quite large.
These are law partners, doctors, and corporate execs that don't have the time or tolerance for such B.S. Even those that drive M5's and M3's.
Same circles, types of problems listed above.
You can have your cake and eat it too, today. I sincerely hope your experience with your Audi and Mini prove you wrong and you're not without them for 20-30 days annually. Because if I wasn't willing to accept that kind of trade off on a 911, you sure as hell shouldn't have to on them. There are plenty of other good choices in their categories.
1. I expect it. So far I'm ignoring problems in my Mini (engine hesitation in the morning, HVAC blows hot air).
2. I don't think there are many good choices available in any of the segments. Beyond BMW there is...nobody else I'd buy in the sedan world. Period, full stop. The other cars in its segment are just plain lame. The A3 won out because it offered a compact, fun, powerful, semi-luxurious wagon form (an anomaly in today's world of CUVs/crossovers). Mini got me for the same kinds of reasons - compact, powerful, semi-luxurious and most importantly a hoot to drive (closest thing to it is the GTI and that's all).
I don't see the big deal in giving up a car for repairs a few times a year. Turn it in, get a free rental or just go home and use an extra car. Shrug. For driver fun, I see that as a fine trade-off.
#10100 of 16985 Re: Speaking of brake dust... [blueguydotcom]
Aug 01, 2007 (8:25 am)
For driver fun, I see that as a fine trade-off.
IMO, you are closer to my feeling than expecting no failures. The reality is, all cars WILL break. Even Porsche. So, get as much pleasure as you can but expect the inevitable. As long as I get a free loaner and the repair is free (in the last case, a 335i), I am good. That to me is valuable after the driving experience.
The bottom line for me in today's auto world is getting the best package you are looking for (and there is not a whole lot of choice if you expect top performance in a given segment) and plan your repair plan (redundancy strategy) and when you feel you should replace the car (exit strategy.
In habitat's case, the '99 Maxima is a good example of a redundancy plan!
In your case, getting out of the 330i lease early was your exit strategy.
#10101 of 16985 Re: Speaking of brake dust... [circlew]
Aug 01, 2007 (9:29 am)
Good memory. But actually, it's a 95 Maxima and inasmuch as it's sitting at our second home 375 miles away, it doesn't do much as a back up. I do have a 2004 TL, but I'm considering selling it and bringing back the Maxima.
Maybe there's something in the engine oil out there in southern California, but the BMW experiences of my friends and colleagues back east have been pretty good. Maybe not quite up to Lexus in problem infrequency, but comparable or better than Lexus if and when something serious goes wrong. My former boss put 120,000 miles on his 1997 528i and never had a major repair. Retired, moved to Laguna Niguel, bought a new Audi S4 convertible and has had nothing but problems in the first 18 months.
I'll admit that although "driving pleasure" is very high on my list, I'm not going to turn a complete blind eye to reliability and the potential for costly repairs. I had a chance to "steal" a Ferrari 328 at the time I got my S2000 and couldn't bring myself to pull the trigger on a car that runs $2k+ for a tune up and lots more for repairs. As I've said many times, the fact that my 1995 Maxima gave me 155k of trouble free miles contributed to my financial ability (and guilt free conscience) to buy a 911. Also, I always pay cash for my cars and expect to be able to keep them for 100k+ miles, whether I choose to or not.
Blueguy, not that it's any of my business but, if driving pleasure is/was paramount to you, and you are a two car family, why not one of the two cars you already have - take your pick - and something like a Honda S2000? I can understand why a single person might not want a 2 seater sports car as their only car, but for a couple to have two compact FWD cars seems a little redundant. Not that each isn't a great choice by itself, but I think one or the other with an S2000 would be a better "driving pleasure portfolio". Feel free to tell me to pound salt - I'm NOT trying to pull your chain, I'm just curious.
#10102 of 16985 Re: Speaking of brake dust... [habitat1]
Aug 01, 2007 (9:51 am)
Blueguy, not that it's any of my business but, if driving pleasure is/was paramount to you, and you are a two car family, why not one of the two cars you already have - take your pick - and something like a Honda S2000?
We've got 3 cars for two of us. I flirted with a MX-5 (we get s-plan pricing) but my fiancee expressed that she would never ride in it with the top down. Ditto the S2000, Z4, Z3, Boxster. No point in going convertible in San Diego if I can't use it 24/7.
but for a couple to have two compact FWD cars seems a little redundant. Not that each isn't a great choice by itself, but I think one or the other with an S2000 would be a better "driving pleasure portfolio". Feel free to tell me to pound salt - I'm NOT trying to pull your chain, I'm just curious.
I would agree and I wanted a small RWD. No such thing exists in compact coupe/sedan form. Also knowing that we are going to start a family in 09/10, I had to get a daily driver that I could flip easily - the Mini stands apart expressly because it's fun, BMW-engineered and it has astounding resale. In 09/10 I should be able to part ways with it and avoid the 40-50% drop of cars that don't hold their value very well (like my BMWs for for instance). At the point when I need to sell I'll get something roomier (alas, the 1 series won't come as a hatch/sedan here): WRX, 335i (wish it came as a wagon) or maybe the new A4 Avant.
#10103 of 16985 Re: banner ads [jzalkin]
Aug 01, 2007 (11:49 am)
"Who shot JFK? "
I bet you think that we attacked Iraq because of 9/11.
As I said before, the Lexus Zealots would say anything as to not let the reputation of their precious car maker be damaged. I have said that I had a good experience with BMW and have used it for contrast but more so than that I would have to say for me anything but Lexus. Give me a honda, Volvo, whatever but just not Lexus because the company is shady.
as for the other forum you did not get to see the whole story and all of the postings that Edumonds removed based on negative coments about Lexus in a Lexus forum. You cant have that when they are your advertisers. as for sylvias comment, how exactly can I prevent people from posting? you said "give others a chance to talk" If I had the power to control someone elses website, I would post the truth right on Lexus.com and not bother with Edmunds.
If you believe, like Edmunds does, that the cost of maintanece, and how that should affect your buying decision (my point in that forum), is not a factor for the purchase then you know nothing about buying a car.
Maybe you work for lexus. you seem to pull "facts" out with every posting breaking down any dissentient's comments line by line. If it walks like a duck. If the Pharm company lobbists can out number congressmen 4 to 1. Why can't an auto maker put an employee in forums to provide disinformation for potential buyers?
Before you do your ROFL dance, just remember this one, I said any car but Lexus so that clearly makes me impartial, but are totally Lexus Zealot all the way. You seem like a logo buyer.
and BTW this proves that your information is BS. IS250 AWD does come with runflats and that is why they couldn't patch them.
and lastly why when I am posting my viewpoint and experience, do you have to so vigorously rebute line buy line that my personal experience is wrong... it is my experience not yours and not JD powers and not Edmunds.... its' mine. Like I said either Lexus Zealot or a fourm lobbist for Lexus. Which is it? Maybe YOU should look in the mirror.
#10104 of 16985 Re: seems to me... [fedlawman]
Aug 01, 2007 (12:12 pm)
(you probably won't even detect a difference), but they will no longer perform to "OE standards."
this is true. so many, and I cant begin to count, want to make it a major performance issue. That would be true if I was racing my IS. but I am going to work and back and the High Friction system might stop faster (no more than 2 feet), but in the real world with consumers, the weakest link by far is the person, between eyes to brain to foot. that could be many car lengths. so to spend $600 (that is for the front system, rotors and pads at the dealer) for 2 feet, is not logical (this is setting the dust asside which can be annoying but not as much as an empty wallet).
Also, Lexus did threaten me that not continuing on the $600 every 20k miles by putting aftermarket would not only void the warranty for those parts (understandable to me) but anything associated to them. (unacceptable to me). I took this as them making a case that my rear brakes are now not covered because they are part of the entire braking system which was void by the front non-om parts.