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Coupes & Convertibles Mercedes-Benz SL/SLK-Class Mercedes-Benz SL and SLK (all models)
766 messages, Last post on Oct 26, 2009 at 3:12 AM
You are in the Mercedes-Benz SL/SLK-Class Forum. Your Host is claires
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Well said imaram. Lexus seems quite capable of standing on their own, and when they do so they seem to enjoy a great deal of success. The IS300 really is a blast to drive, the old SCs were beautiful cars and the new LS430 seems to have grown up into a car of its own. But then you have the LS400 and the SC430 and the SUV lineup which don't aspire for much more than to copy the competition. I'd like to see a Lexus exotic, the NSX of Lexus just to see what the company could do. |
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Not to get into a Lexus conversation, but the RX300 seems pretty much a segment definition, IMO. kind of has the M-Class on the mat, until you hit 500 or 55, and no domestic maker can touch it. The 470 is a joke, as far as I'm concerned. That's rebadging at its worst. LS430 is a winner, but I still think they're aiming at Mercedes, not quite hitting the mark, and scoring points in spite of themselves. In this class, I'd still rather park the SL500 in my personal garage. That or an XKR. Hmmmmm. |
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I got to write a check for my new SL500 this week, but because I am taking European delivery I have to wait a month before I drive it and then another 6 weeks before it returns to the US. Anyway, my sticker was $91,500 which included the comfort package, wood package, bi-xenons and maybe one other option. I placed my order more than a year ago, so there was no mark up. There seems to be quite a few designo editions in the first shipments to all the dealers, which are $10K more than the others. Also, Mercedes, which had been pressuring dealers not to mark up cars, seems to have relaxed this restriction. My dealer told me that the first car they sold went for $30K more than MSRP. Forget about the SL55, those cars when they arrive in the late summer, will be very rare and probably sell for $50K over. I spent time in the new car and was very impressed with the attention to the details, with only a few slip ups. The HVAC dials look like they are right out of a Chrysler and the plastic shroud over the speedo is cheap (the SL55 covers this in leather). However there are so many other positives about this car, I feel very happy that I am getting one. |
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Mercedes leads, Lexus follows, it's always been that way it seems. Just line 'em up from 1990-2002, model to model, and you'll see who is following who. Lexus was BORN as a Mercedes clone (and a darn good one, too!) This is not to deny Lexus innovation of its own, nor its own deserved good reputation, but they have always dogged Mercedes, because they know where the blue chips are. Benz is the star, Lexus the understudy who hopes the star breaks her leg some night. (And she may, she may). While I am tempted to beat every SC430 I see with a baseball bat, I have to say that it is one of the FIRST cars from Lexus that attempts to step out and take charge in styling and concept. For that I give them a thumbs up. Now try again. |
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The CLK may look good on the outside but the inside is pure ,downmarket, cheap looking materials and plastics a step above Chrysler junk especially in dull grey. The SC blows it away in materials and richness, fit/finish is tighter no doubt. Typical Lexus high quality. The new SL500 continues this trend with cheap looking details a big no no in this price car. Center console doesn't even have leather console lining like the SC or the rich brushed metal HVAC stereo surround. Audi still has much nicer interiors than these new benzes of today. This all new car still uses an old SOHC engine design. For this price give me an NSX anyday handbuilt, super high quality, much rarier bargain priced exotic. Mercedes also copies Lexus details as in the door hinges of the big CL Coupe are straight off the old SC coupes. One hellva durable design for a door hinge though. Don't think M.B. doesn't study Lexus as did Lexus M.B. for 8 years developing the 1st LS. Lexus also pioneered multiplex wiring which is the most reliable design in electrical systems. Lexus will hit M.B. again with a big V-12 ultra sedan in a few years and all new high perforance models of the GS sedans with 4wd. The boys in Tokyo want to be number 1 and the boys in Stuttgart will surely feel the heat. |
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To really appreciate a Mercedes you need to saw it in half. No, I mean that seriously. So much about that car is not seen by the observer. Even if the Benz doesn't have the "brushed metal" stereo surround or the 1960s Chris Crafty wood trim, you can be sure Mercedes put the money in the chassis or in some facet of engineering that you will never see in a million miles of driving. German cars have never been about obstentation. They are all business, sometimes even humorless in their obsession with function over form. The history of both Lexus and Mercedes as we know them today actually goes back to Cadillac, of all places. Cadillac, in the 1950s, showed the world that one could mass-produce a quality car in enormous numbers. Mercedes took a hard look at this and basically blew Cadillac out of the luxury market. Then in 1990 Toyota took a hard look at Mercedes and made a brilliant transition into the luxury car market itself. I'm sure that the LS400 was not wanted German car makers wanted to see! But that doesn't mean that either Cadillac or Lexus IS, therefore, a Mercedes. In some ways, either car can excel a Benz in certain areas, no doubt about it. GM and Lexus engineers are not stupid people. But overall, in all the details, the Benz is still "engineered like no other car in the world" and no amount of pretty little details or avant garde styling is going to dethrone them. Mercedes reputation is at the end of the wrench, not in the marketing department. The company still delivers on its promises, even if the days of silver-plated trim and rosewood tea tables are over for all automakers competing in mass-produced markets. |
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"This all new car still uses an old SOHC engine design" I think I know the one you mean. It uses three valves per cylinder, two spark plugs per cylinder and a magnesium intake manifold with two stage ressonance. Sounds like a pretty outdated design to me (right!). I also like your thoughts on "rich brushed metal". You mean the stuff on the dash of my old '77 Trans Am, right? That is much richer than real wood. Keep dreaming, MB remains the standard of the world. |
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Just a FYI - ALL car companies study other car companies. It is endemic in the industry and the company that thinks it can develop top-of-class products on their own is usually the first to stumble. And while there will always be style, value or feature leaders and followers, everyone gets to the finish line in their own way, and innovates along the way. Hence you have Mercedes building some of amazing suspension mechanicals that Lexus could only dream about, and Lexus producing cars with gap tolerances that Mercedes is a decade away from duplicating. Each company innovates, all have their unique strengths, and innovation never, ever stops at body shell design or window sticker feature list. I just wanted to inject this into the "so-and-so innovates and so-and-so clearly just copies" discussion. |
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The historical record is there for all to see nonetheless. I'd be interested to know what distinct and readily identifiable engineering or styling feature Mercedes copied from Lexus. I can't think of any, but I don't know everything, so point it out please, year and model would be helpful. PS: Nobody really has to do this. It's rhetorical. I'm just making the point that it would be hard to think of anything, whereas with Benz being copied the list is pretty long. Right off, I can think of the "little armchair" electric seat adjuster (law suits flew on that one) , the multilink rear suspension, the grillework, the trunk lid (just about everybody got that one!), the use of ohc V8s in luxury 4-doors, the "look" of the interior/console area, the middle sun visor (recent Audi rip-off of Benz idea) , the entire S series concept (which is what the first Lexi and Infinitis were). I'm sure there's tons more. Even the ABS and ESP stability systems you find on many cars (their own versions) today were premeried on Mercedes-Benzes (1978 and 1995). ABS comes from the German "antiblockiersystem." |
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Well, to fair, I remember the release of the LS, GS and SC fairly well, although I'm sure you remember them better, Shifty. I think anyone'd have to be blind to suggest that the LS wasn't, and isn't, a blatant attempt at copying Mercedes, but I never saw a real Mercedes connection with the GS or the original SC, which is why I found both of those very appealing on their own merits. I'm not suggesting that they aren't using MB (and now BMW) as a benchmark, but at least those two examples had seemingly independent style. As far as technical innovation goes, this not now, nor has it ever been a key to Japanese success. Refinement of other's technologies and the processes by which they are utilized, has been the MO. Still, one can't say that at least, oh, Honda hasn't presented the world with some significant engineering, IMO. |
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