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Mercedes-Benz SL and SLK (all models)

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What is this discussion about? Mercedes-Benz SL-Class, Convertible

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#102 of 766 wrong by sphinx99 Mar 12, 2002 (8:53 am)
I think you're stretching if you want to paint this as world vs toyotas1. It's not so simple. Like I said, I haven't read a single "this car knocked us out of our shoes" review yet. Not one. Not one review that has the kind of praise that you see cars like 360 Modenas and S2000s and BMW M3s getting on a monthly basis, review after review, year after year. More than one review appears to have negative bias. On top of that, a few people in this very post have driven the car (dschmidt) and had some issues with the car as well. So how exactly is it that the SL500 is world-vs-toyotas1? It sure seems to me like SL-loyalists-who-haven't-driven-the-2003-SL-yet versus SC-loyalists-who-haven't-driven-the-2003-SL-yet. Tell me, what was your opinion of the ABS system? When you stomped on the pedal, did it feel more responsive? (I'm not asking the brochure; I'm asking you.) And how did it compare to the DVD nav system on the Lexus? I assume you used it, since you drove the car and found it to be "dumb."   We haven't seen enough informed opinions on this car, just a lot of "well the SL has ABC and ABS and according to the brochure these are really cool things that the SC doesn't have, therefore the SL is better" comments and frankly, a lot of people wouldn't mind a "dumb" nav system over a "dumb" suspension system. You can't write off features in this class of cars as dumb, when this class of cars is *all* about packing as many features as possible into as small a space as you can. To its credit, when it comes to feature lists the SL has the SC beat. Heck, we haven't seen this many new gadgets since the 3000GT VR4 spyder. However I have learned that feature lists don't say a lot about feature utility, and unless you've actually used these different features, I don't see how you can say that one car's features are good while dismissing those of another car.
#103 of 766 by Mr_Shiftright HOST Mar 12, 2002 (8:55 am)
I don't think the cars are closely comparable, no, since the SL500 is much more the "sportscar" in terms of handling. The SC430 is obviously aimed at the softer XK8. However, given the level of luxury and performance you get, and if you can live with the weird styling, the SC430 is something of a bargain next to the SL500, if you are the type that doesn't tear around corners or demand a very high level of agility. The SC430 shows good numbers on skidpad, slolam, etc., but I can tell you from personal experience that it isn't happy doing it. This is a wide open road type of car.   So really, unless you are a very aggressive and sporty driver, and unless the SC styling turns you off, it's the better buy in terms of luxury for the money. As for status, well, Mercedes has the advantage of a long and rich history which Lexus can't do anything about. Still, you get points for driving a Lexus, there is no doubt.   Road & Track ran a great article a while back for the "Best 5 Convertibles" for the money, each in a different price class. They picked neither the Lexus or the SL500, and I agree with them about that.
#104 of 766 shifty by sphinx99 Mar 12, 2002 (8:59 am)
What cars did R&T pick? (I'm curious.)   I expect the XLR to compete much more closely with the SL500. I agree that the SC and SL aren't too comparable. They target slightly different audiences. There probably would be some cross-shopping, but then again you will have people cross-shopping an Excursion against a 911 to figure out what they want to be seen in, or what their priorities are.
#105 of 766 by Mr_Shiftright HOST Mar 12, 2002 (9:05 am)
Lessee, sphinx, I'll try to remember them. Miata LS of course in the bottom range, Corvette, BMW M3, Porsche and Ferrari. The criteria were (all 3 together) Excitement, Entertainment and Value. So given those aspects of the choice, I could see where both the Lexus and SL500 lose out, for different reasons.
#106 of 766 Saying that the SC and SL aren't comparable is like..... by toyotas1 Mar 12, 2002 (9:32 am)
Saying the Liberty and Grand Cherokee aren't comparable because they are $5k different in price. Both cars have 300hp, both cars are expensive luxury cars, both cars are converibles, both cars have aluminum roofs (they are 2 out of a market of 3!), and are both the same size! They couldn't be more comparable! And V12, you can't say the Lexus copied anything from the SL because it came out FIRST! It is my guess, now looking at Lexus' pricing strategy (showing the immense value of the car by pricing it 25% less than the SL), and the Benz price strategy (rigid, high $80's), that the upcoming XLR will thry to sit between them, instead of fight one or the other. It's like playing baseball, especially in a new segment (hardtop convertibles). Hit it where they ain't.....
#107 of 766 wrong by v12power Mar 12, 2002 (9:44 am)
I find nav systems in general to be worthless options. Open up the map for gods sake. I prefer mechanical improvements over luxo features. Maybe I am the one that is strange.   I have an MB with the ABC system, it is a very impressive and useful feature of the car. I have not tried the SL, there is not one availible near me right now. I will likely wait for the SL55 anyway, it suits my tastes better. That is probably what this boils down to, personal taste/preferances. Lexus, in general, makes cars that are rather bland driving when compared to the european competition. Sure they are a good value, sure they offer impressive option loads, but they do not drive the way I expect a car to drive. I also find the styling to be Japanese wierd, they have yet to style an attractive car.
#108 of 766 Fortunately.... by toyotas1 Mar 12, 2002 (10:07 am)
the market disagrees. This design certaily dispells the myth that Toyotas (and Japanese designs in general) are boring, or derivative. And many people who drive $60-70-80k vehicles use NAV ALOT, want it to be super-convenient (adding to it's value, Benz owners dismiss it generally because Benz doesn't know how to make them useful or intelligent). Do people get more use out of a CD player in dash, or positive feeling controls, or an ABC system you can only appreciate on an Autobahn..... I applaud the pioneering thinkig for their suspensions, and I LOVE a car that drives well. But at these prices, it better not be at the expense of.....anything. They want all the jack, I want all the features!
#109 of 766 well... by v12power Mar 12, 2002 (12:19 pm)
I don't think it dispells any myth, remember that most people are derivative and boring too. How else would you account for GM selling anything other than Corvettes?   Do you know a lot of people with cars in that price range? How do you KNOW they use the nav systems? The peole I know that own these cars generally live in the city and commute to and from work. They go the same route everyday, they know the way, they rarely use nav. I have used my Benz' nav system. It is so easy to use that my wife tried it first. We bought the car in California, 2500 miles from home. We had to get from downtown LA to the Ontario airport in rush hour traffic, we had no map. The only instruction she had was the 10 minutes the salesman spent on it during delivery, no book reading, no prior experience. She simply used the command system to look up the airport and the voice told here where to go. It was very simple, and very helpful. My guess is that you have never tried the system. It worked flawlessly for me. I have also read that the touch screen in the Lexus tends to look dirty due to fingerprints on the screen. Pretty classy set-up.   Like the MB nav system, I doubt you have experienced the ABC system. You do not need an autobahn to appreciate it. It eliminates pitch and roll in everyday driving, almost completely. It imparts a sense of control and stability not found in other cars.   So, there seem to be two items you can pick on here. You insist that dvd nav is infinately superior to cd based systems because it uses one disc instead of 9. Then you require a cd player in the dash. You make it sound like the MB doesn't even have nav or cd. They do, it is just a little different system. With just the smallest amout of brainpower you can load the cd magazine and proper nav cd before you depart. You are good to go for hours then. It is certainly not the issue you want to make it out to be.
#111 of 766 toyotas1 by merc1 Mar 12, 2002 (10:13 pm)
Is that all you've got is sales figures? You're deflating even faster now. Notice how your posts get shorter and shorter. Yep, sales figures for a car that costs thousands less are higher so I guess that makes the Honda Accord the best car on the road. Duh, if the SC430 can't beat the CLK430 Cabrio (now remember you're the one that lives and dies by C&D) what chance do you think it stands against the brand-new SL500, that is years ahead of the CLK430 cabrio? The fool is the one who thinks they're getting the Benz experience in the SC430.   sphinx99,   That's because you're not reading the right magazines. R&T, SCI have both said wonderful things about the SL500, and Sports Car International has said that the SL500 is quite possibly the best car on the road or the "perfect automobile", the SC430 hasn't got that in the year or so it's been on the market. You guys kill me, just because C&D did gush you can't even read anyone else's review of the car. PICK UP OTHER MAGAZINES!   On that R&T best convertibles issue. I know they picked the Corvette, 911 Carrera, and 360 Modena, not sure what the others were. I will have to search the vault for the issue to give you the others.   M

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