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#61 of 1677 Another possible barrier by peachtree103 Mar 05, 2002 (9:14 pm)
I believe every auto maker is now planning to significantly expand their luxury offerings. GM seems to be spitting out a new Caddy every week. Lutz plans to put serious resources into Saab. Ford is attempting to gain market share in all PAG lines, BMW is adding X3, Z5, and 6 series, Infiniti has finally offered a competitive product in the G35 and is showing signs of achieving its potential. Etc., Etc.   My point not so much to point out competitors for the Phaeton, as it is to ask is there room for all of these models in this segment. I doubt there is enough growth in the $40K+ segment to support all the new entries. It's great for us consumers, but some automakers are bound to find themselves on the short end of this stick.   Though VW is on a great roll, and the Phaeton may be a great car, this looks like a large, uphill battle for VW to pull off. I hope they're committed for the long haul.
#62 of 1677 magnetophone by merc1 Mar 05, 2002 (11:25 pm)
You may just be right about the A8 and fayton.   M
#63 of 1677 I like it by v12power Mar 06, 2002 (5:27 am)
The car looks better than the new 7 series, it looks better than an A8 or the LS430. My opinion of course, but it is a sharp, clean design. I wouldn't hold my breath for a diesel. Many of the best diesels stay on the other side of the pond due to our lower quality fuel. Both MB and BMW have awsome new diesels, you don't see them here though. I agree with the theory against big buck VWs. They are going to have trouble selling in the $70k range. I think the dealer network is a serious liability. The stand alone VW dealerships I have seen will not attract upscale buyers. If in fact, as someone stated earlier, they are upgrading dealers to be able to handle these products, there is hope. Still, it will take time to woo consumers. Status is a big issue, many are fickle in this catagory, the best car does not always win. Though Lexus proved that a darn good car can easily steal some market share. It will be interesting. To suggest that there is not room in the market for this car is a little naive. Carmakers are not that foolish. Rest assured there has been copius research done to support the theory of this cars success. I welcome the competition, sure can't hurt.
#64 of 1677 by merc1 Mar 06, 2002 (5:33 am)
Well said, and very, very true. The Phaeton will have some takers no matter what.   M
#65 of 1677 Phaeton by big_guy Mar 06, 2002 (9:36 am)
The very fact that VW does not normally make high-end luxury vehicles may appeal to some buyers. Personally, the majority of people that I know who own a BMW, Mercerdes, Lexus, etc. own the car because it has "snob" appeal. There are some people out there (myself included) that stay away from those vehicles for that very reason. I don't want a car that yells out, "Hey, I'm rich and better than you because I drive a Mercedes!". Just my $.02
#66 of 1677 Second that motion by mlayton694 Mar 06, 2002 (11:04 am)
Their are a good-many people who drive Audis that don't care about value (how much you get for your money), they care more about being exclusive due to various insecurities/self-image problems in their lives   BTW - There a BMW/Hyundai/Chevrolet dealer in Tinton Falls, NJ. Yes, thats right, Elantras and 5Series within a rock's throw of one another (albeit separate showrooms) There is also an Audi dealership that teams with Kia in Old Bridge. Again, separate showrooms, but same lot !!!!
#67 of 1677 big guy by v12power Mar 06, 2002 (11:18 am)
I think your point is very valid. I also think that people spending $60-70k on any car are going to have serious expectations of the dealer / service programs. In this area I think VW is currently seriously lacking. I see an unrealistic side to your point as well. Do you really think that people will shell out that kind of money just to be spiteful? I don't think that people with the money to buy a $70k car actually care about the snob factor.   About this snob issue. I have had several top of the line cars. Most of the folks I run into that own these types of cars buy them because they actually like cars. Thats my excuse anyway. I am a Porsche club member. I have an '86 944T, not exactly a huge monetary investment. I find myself able to move through the pits at our track events and never run into a snob, even if they have 10 times the money into their car. I think there is a bit of a myth out there that the more fortunate look down upon the less fortunate. Some certainly do, but most wealthy people started out poor. There is a higher regard than you may think. I have three Mercedes, a BMW and a Porsche, I do not consider myself any better than you because of what I drive. Besides after buying all these things I'm not so rich anymore!   I personally like the VW on its own merits. I'd even buy a Caddilac if they could put together a world class car. I try to buy the best I can afford, regardless of brand or snob appeal. I think the luxo car market moves this way as well. Witness Lexus' tremendous success. So if VW plays this right they could have a hit, and a whole new market to play to.   I do think this is a strange approach considering Audis comeback. But like I said before, these guys are not amatures, this is a big risk, and as with all risks, it is a calculated one.
#68 of 1677 v12power by big_guy Mar 06, 2002 (11:52 am)
Your point is well taken . . . however, just because a car costs a lot of money doesn't necessarily make it the best car. Take Lexus for an example. Most of the Lexus vehicles are mechanically identical (with some exceptions) to their lower prices Toyota siblings, but you pay an additional $5k to $20k to add a gold badge "L" on your grille (the example that blows me away is the Toyota Land Cruiser at ~$55k but to get a car that is the vehicles twin, the Lexus LX470, you need to shell out an additional $20k to get the "luxury/snob" treatments on the inside of the vehicle and the "L" on the grille. Then take a look at the Lexus driver looking at the Toyota owner and thinking to himself, "I'm better than that guy because I have a "luxury" Lexus and he only has a Toyota". Where-as the Toyota driver is thinking to himself, "boy, what an idiot, he could have had the same vehicle for $20k less."   Personally, I don't see myself ever paying $70k for any car. Heck my first house was only $75k. Maybe it is because the "luxury" features don't impress me. I don't mind a luxurious couch in my home, or a great mattress to sleep on but do I really need power leather seats that have 3 massage settings, and a "real" wood dashboard and wood trim inserts in a vehicle I drive 30 miles a day? I am more concerned with function than with form.   Just my $.02
#69 of 1677 by v12power Mar 06, 2002 (12:18 pm)
In defense of the Lexus premium, they do offer far superior service / support on the cars, in addition to the select extra luxo bits. I totally agree on the L/C LX470, why buy the Lex? I really hpoe people don't do it for the golden L, though you are probably right.   Do not say "never" on these spendy beasts. I used to say that simply because I figured I would never have the money, circumstances and situations change. You would also be amazed how rewarding, sans snobbism, the drive can be.
#70 of 1677 by zscott1 Mar 06, 2002 (1:22 pm)
"Their are a good-many people who drive Audis that don't care about value (how much you get for your money), they care more about being exclusive due to various insecurities/self-image problems in their lives"   I can't believe I am insecure and have self-image problems.   I thought I like Audi becuase it is a great car. Off to the Shrink...

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