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#2575 of 4703 by varmint Aug 20, 2003 (9:47 am)
Micweb - Ummm... yes and no.   RT4WD is a reactive design. That's true. However, it is much faster and more effective than you seem to expect. The rear wheels will kick in after the front tires spin about one quarter of a turn.   The main advantage is that it allows the vehicle to remain in FWD mode when power to the rear is superfluous. The drivetrain is more efficient this way, which promotes good fuel economy and acceleration.   Traction control systems will help you accelerate in slippery conditions by preventing power from "leaking" out one side of the differential. They don't do all that much for cornering and handling. (They don't do anything unless you have your foot on the gas.) You need a stability control system that manages all four wheels to balance a car in a slippery turn.   I agree that proactive or full-time AWD is the best in terms of absolute power distribution. But your paper assessment of reactive systems is considerably weaker than experience has shown.
#2576 of 4703 by ateixeira Aug 20, 2003 (10:06 am)
The catch with traction control is it retards momentum. Some times you actually want a little wheel slip.   My friend leased a ML320 and actually turns it off in the snow, he thought it was a nuisance.   Also, a FWD vehicle going up a steep hill is a recipe for disaster. All the weight transfers to the rear axle. The fronts have no traction and aren't likely to get it even with traction control.   Consumer Reports' test a couple of months back had AWD better than even snow tires on FWD, IIRC. The advantage was slight, but imagine both with the same tires.   -juice
#2577 of 4703 Mesh Grill by bigkahunafl Aug 20, 2003 (11:02 am)
Have you ever seen another E with the mesh grill? Is that a standard E accessorie?
#2578 of 4703 xweb by mtngal Aug 20, 2003 (7:32 pm)
Where in Germany are you? I think it would depend on where you are. Years ago I lived in Mannheim and Karlesruhe and had a (then) boyfriend (now husband) in Lahr. I often drove to Heidelberg and Kaiserslautern. When I first went over there I had a 3/4 ton Dodge van, then sold it and bought a mustang (tons of fun!). I never felt a need for 4x4 on those roads (though I did drive carefully when it was icy).   I do agree that the main benefit of an AWD Element for me is to go around the chains required checkpoints. I currently use a Wrangler to do that, but have discovered that its system doesn't help much on icy roads.
#2579 of 4703 mtngal -- I live in Wiesbaden! by xweb Aug 20, 2003 (11:26 pm)
So I don't expect to be driving through snow as often as on wet roads and/or icy roads. But I do have a somewhat steep road to climb to get to my house, lined with cars on both sides--I don't want to slide into anyone in my new Element!   Of course, over here, the roads are cleaned pretty quickly, and the car I have right now, a 15-year-old Opel Kadett hatch (FWD), has not given me any trouble, although I am very careful to drive slower when it's wet or icy or snowy.   micweb, varmint, ateixeira--thanks for the material to think about! It does sound like the AWD system would be somewhat helpful, but perhaps I could make do with snow tires. Of course, then I'd be spending as much for a second set of winter wheels and tires as the AWD costs anyway!   I used to live in Montana, had a 1984 Toyota Tercel wagon with 4WD I engaged with a lever. It did help, but I still managed to slide into a curb when I took a turn too fast (driving on packed snow). Then I had a 1991 Nissan Sentra 4WD (full-time) which was great in winter driving but otherwise a lemon. I liked having the flexibility of 4WD, and it came in handy a few times when parked on muddy logging roads.   Plus the weight penalty of AWD for performance--it doesn't appear to affect the gas mileage much, but the extra couple hundred pounds must have some impact on performance. Anyone driven both versions?   I'd absolutely love to test drive an Element, but unfortunately there's only one military-related dealer, and they have none in stock--whenever they get one in, it gets sold immediately!   I guess I'm leaning towards 4WD now, even though I can't get it with a stick through this dealer.   Anyone ever ship a car overseas? Maybe I can buy one in the States and have it shipped over if it's not too expensive.   You all are lucky to have all those Honda dealerships to test drive at! Maybe I need to make a special trip just to go test driving.   Of course, then the 2004s will come out and I'll be confused again. Thanks everyone, you all make this one of the best forums I've seen.--x
#2580 of 4703 by bowke28 Aug 21, 2003 (5:15 am)
i think winter tires can do more for you than all wheel drive can. it doesnt matter what wheels have traction if your tires dont have grip.
#2581 of 4703 by varmint Aug 21, 2003 (9:24 am)
Juice - I think C&D came to the opposite conclusion. I think the 4X4 they tested was a Rover, but I can't recall the Blizzak-shod 2WD opponent. Both CR's and C&D's are probably valid tests, just different conditions.   Bigkahunafl - I don't think it's an OEM accessory, but you can try Handaaccessories.com. FWIW, I've read articles describing how to create your own mesh covers. The best looking one I've seen used gutter-guard material with a nice aggressive-looking diamond pattern. I've also seen an "Element of the month" with two riveted metal plates up front.   Send me an e-mail for details.
#2582 of 4703 2WD vs. Snow tires by zenzikora Aug 21, 2003 (10:00 am)
perhaps one magazine used a FWD with snow tires, and the other a RWD? I think FWD with snow tires is pretty easy to deal with in the snow, our big RWD van was OK probably because we took it easy and had enough weight to keep the tires planted, and the Mid-Rear Fiero was awful on only 1 inch. I have never driven AWD in the snow, so I figure I'll be fine with Front and snow tires.
#2583 of 4703 by ateixeira Aug 21, 2003 (11:29 am)
Probably depends on what all-season tires you compare the winter tires to. There are good and bad all-season tires.   I'd still pick good all seasons with AWD over FWD with snow tires.   -juice
#2584 of 4703 by zenzikora Aug 21, 2003 (12:11 pm)
I probably would too, if I had an extra $1400 to spend, instead of the few hundred for snow tires, but I don't, so I figure I'm better of dealing with FWD and not spoiling myself . . . Haven't crashed or gotten stuck yet, though I had a rough time once before I got snow tires on going up a steep hill from a standstill. And I don't stay home when it snows either, unless it's really bad.

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