Last post on Mar 31, 2013 at 4:37 PM
You are in the Vans & Minivans
What is this discussion about?
Toyota Sienna, Dodge Caravan, Chevrolet Venture, Mazda MPV, Kia Sedona, Honda Odyssey, Chevrolet Uplander, Nissan Quest, Hyundai Entourage, Van
#3621 of 3798 Re: Honda vs Dodge [voiceofstl]
Apr 21, 2009 (6:17 am)
I paid about $25k for my Sienna LE with power sliding doors on both sides and a trip computer. There's no way you could find a Dodge or Kia for $10 grand less than that at the time, probably not now either.
At the time, a similar Dodge van was $22-23k and did not have the 8th seat I wanted. A 7 passenger Sienna was $24.7k. So it was more like $2 grand price advantage, not $10.
The Ody EX, which is the model with the power sliders and 8th seat, was $26,883 at the time, but came with some extra equipment I didn't necessarily want. It costs a bit more but you get the extras.
I actually looked at the Entourage more than the Sedona, though they are clones, and the Entourage was $23,317, and though it still didn't have the 8th seat and a couple of things my Sienna had, it had a backup sensor and heated front seats. So I'd consider the equipment level roughly similar.
I did see one bargain Entourage for $19,799, but it has no power doors and no 6CD changer, so it was pretty bare-bones. Still, a bargain.
I also saw a left over 2006 Dodge minivan for $20,600, but it was the old model, and already looked so outdated.
But you'd have to compare those to a Sienna CE, which was a little under $22k.
So $2-3 grand price edge for similar equipment, maybe, but not $10, no way no how.
Sure, you can price a Sienna sky high, but only if you get things that other vans simply do not offer at all, and that's not really fair. I'm talking about AWD and laser cruise control, stuff like that. Not comparable to any other van, so why compare?
We should not penalize Toyota for offering more options, especially if you don't have to pay for them. Very few Sienna were over $33k when I was shopping, and the funny thing is those were the ones that sold first, because some customers want everything. So they were actually hard to find. Go figure.
Those were prices in the Spring of 2007, and I bet they are down for ALL vans. I know the new Sienna is a few hundred cheaper at least. The Ody's price has dropped even more.
All the better for the van shopper, it's a buyer's market.
#3622 of 3798 Re: Torque Curves [hansienna]
May 11, 2009 (6:54 pm)
BUT, Chrysler 4.0L has MORE torque which is also at a lower RPM than the Sienna 3.5L.
Chrysler 4.0L: 259 lb-ft 4200 RPM
Sienna 3.5L: 245 lb-ft 4700 RPM
Would be nice to compare the GC SXT with a comparably equipped Sienna XLE and not compare the heavy T&C Limited with a lightweight, spartan Sienna CE.
In comparing the American engine vs the foreign did you ever look at Kia Sedona's 3.8?
3,778 cc 3.8 liters V 6 front engine with 96.0 mm bore, 87.1 mm stroke, 10.4 compression ratio, double overhead cam, variable valve timing/camshaft and four valves per cylinder
Unleaded fuel 87
Multi-point injection fuel system
21.1 gallon main unleaded fuel tank 17.6
Power: 186 kW , 250 HP SAE 6,000 rpm; 253 ft lb , 343 Nm 3,500 rpm
#3623 of 3798 Re: Torque Curves [lavrishevo]
May 14, 2009 (11:56 am)
Torque is good but in a head-to-head comparo in C&D the Sienna blew all the other vans away in acceleration tests while also managing to be the most fuel efficient, an impressive feat.
Dodge did well, too, coming in 2nd on both.
The Entourage did OK in acceleration tests but gas mileage was dismal.
#3624 of 3798 Re: Torque Curves [ateixeira]
May 14, 2009 (2:42 pm)
I think we both know 0-60 times on C&D are pathetic compared what many others are achieving. 7.8 is about the fastest achieved on the Sedona. The point I am making is having 253 lbs of torque at such a low rpm is fantastic. It is all about torque for those who know engines not HP. The Sienna is fast because of its weight, the lack there of, and is a good van. I really don't like Dodge but this is just me. Anyway, back to your point about mileage... Ever thought about the amount of years it takes to make up the difference between let's say the Kia Vs Sienna. If the Sienna averaged 4mpg more then the Sedona at 1 21 gal tank a week it would take 19.5 years to make up the $8,000 price difference. Not to smart of a purchase. For me in PR this was the price difference for comparable models. Not to mention the far supperior warranty
#3625 of 3798 Re: Torque Curves [lavrishevo]
May 14, 2009 (3:23 pm)
Economy is only one factor in many that differentiate models that really should only be significant in comparing otherwise evenly matched vehicles and then only on dollars and cents. Spending more for a small economy increase is almost never worth it.
However I took a look at the Hyundai when we were shopping for minivans, walked away and never looked back. Yes it is considerably cheaper... and felt every bit of it. Fit and finish were no where near the Toyota and Honda levels and much closer to Dodge level. On the sample I looked at, the third row was the least accessible of any minivan and more like a cross over- that may have been because not even the dealer could operate the 2nd row mechanism correctly. The magic third row was heavy and hard to move and that would have been a strict no-go for my 5'4", 105# wife (only the Nissan's single bench third row was heavier and more awkward). The general impression was they looked at the lead vans on the market and made lesser imitations of good features, but had no original thoughtfulness to add. Ride quality and driving dynamics were blah even for a minivan. Also, while Hyundai has made great strides, they still aren't in the same league for reliability and the forum discussions bear that out. All that makes the extra cost of the Sienna worth it with more power and better economy as icing on the cake.
#3626 of 3798 Re: Torque Curves [yatesjo]
May 14, 2009 (6:56 pm)
I could not disagree with you more. I found nothing so special about the Ody or the Sienna to justify over 10 grand more for the base model Ody and 8,000+ for the Sienna. I'm not saying that they are bad in any way but I am saying they are not worth the extra money. Your claim of not being in the same league is just silly. If this was not the case then how come a lot of market share is being constantly lost to the Korean market. The quality of the Kia, even before the redesign, could easily be claimed to be better then the Ody with tremendous transmissions failures. Now I am not saying the Koreans have not their sets of problems but their problems have not been powertrain. This says a lot about the quality of the most expensive and important parts of the engine. I think I can correctly claim quality because I actually own a Sedona for the last 3 years and have not had problems. The only van that actually handled more like a car is the Ody. The Sienna's ride is softer and leans in the corners more then the Sedona.
My wife has no problems folding the third row but, she is not 105 lbs. To me they are very easy but again this is subjective to body type.
I never test drove the Entourage as Hyundai does not sell it in Puerto Rico so I can not say if it drove different then the Sedona. I do know that the standard features and price sold me.
#3627 of 3798 Re: Torque Curves [lavrishevo]
May 14, 2009 (7:18 pm)
We've all invested in a brand's van and because of that we're going to naturally defend our purchase.
Hyundai guy, your arguments are interesting, but until Consumer Reports tells me Hyundai long term reliability is as good as Toyota and Honda, I'm not buying your argument.
I did check out Hyundai when I was looking for vans. It was an okay van, but I really recall both the Toyota and Honda's being better equipped with more little detail items. The Hyundai price was better, but I only recall it being a $3,000 or $4,000 difference between comparably equipped vans. The depreciation hit you'll take will easily wipe that savings.
If you're a value guy, yeah buy the Hyundai. I wasn't and love my Honda.
#3628 of 3798 Re: Torque Curves [bobber1]
May 15, 2009 (5:20 am)
I own a Sedona not a Entourage by the way. So I guess that makes me a Kia guy... Oh and by the way look at the 09 consumer reports and see how they rate the 09 Sedona off of 2006 data. Real accurate there chief considering 06 was the redesign year.
#3629 of 3798 Re: Torque Curves [lavrishevo]
May 15, 2009 (7:49 am)
I am going to agree and disagree.
it would take 19.5 years to make up the $8,000 price difference
Yes, *if* the prices you were quoted were really that far apart. In my experience it was less than half that price difference, more like $2-3000, easily made up on resale (and then some).
I can find basic Sienna CE vans for $21k all day long without even having to haggle over the price, and you won't find an Entourage or Sedona for $13,000. Sienna LE with 2 power doors for about $24.7k, again no Korean van with power doors on both sides brand new sells for $16.7k. Freight included in all prices, BTW.
And no fair comparing an AWD Sienna with dynamic laser cruise control and HIDs to a Korean van without any of those things.
Apples to apples there's no way the difference is $8000, not in my experience.
You are in Puerto Rico so that may be a different story, but here on the mainland there's just no way it's $8000 less. If it were, to be fair, I'd probably be in a Sedona.
I did think the engine performed fine (I test drove a Sedona). The trim was OK for the price, especially when you stay under $22k, no excuses needed. I felt the cabin was a bit narrow, not sure why, and it wasn't as quiet as the Sienna, but it wasn't bad at all.
Too bad you can't fly up here, buy a van, and drive it back. Only if it's an amphicar, LOL.
#3630 of 3798 Re: Torque Curves [ateixeira]
May 15, 2009 (9:38 am)
In the states the market is very different. Here in PR Sienna's start at 29,500 Ody at 31-32 grand. This is because of the excise tax and lack of competition to name a few factors... And just in general the Japanese dealers are ripping people off because they can.
I agree that there is less options from Kia, but to counter the HID argument my kit from e-bay cost less the $200.00 with lifetime warranty. Not sure why someone would pay often over a grand for this option when you can do it yourself for 1/8th the price. Not to mention my pioneer touchscreen in the front connected to a 10.4 inch in the back for less then a grand. These options from the dealer are always a rip off.