Last post on Mar 31, 2013 at 4:37 PM
You are in the Vans & Minivans
What is this discussion about?
Toyota Sienna, Dodge Caravan, Chevrolet Venture, Mazda MPV, Kia Sedona, Honda Odyssey, Chevrolet Uplander, Nissan Quest, Hyundai Entourage, Van
#3485 of 3798 Re: ERRORS and comments for the well written "Big 3 Comparison" [mfletou1]
Apr 10, 2008 (10:03 am)
I heard that they made some significant changes in the tranny in the past few years and am glad they swapped it out with an entirely different one with a good history. There is a very good chance I will be buying the Honda just because their dealers have have the vehicles with what I need sitting on their lots while Toyota does not.
In my comment I said that configured with the minimum options for what I need, the Toyota cost less. I'm comparing a Sienna LE 8-passenger with EV#2 (MSRP=$27125 invoice=$24481 incentives=$1000) to a Odyssey EX (MSRP=$29595 invoice=$26864 incentives=$2000. At those prices the Honda has more options, but the extra options are not what we need or even want and even with the recent increase in Honda dealer incentive the Honda is still a $1400 premium over the Toyota.
As to the Buick comment... I'm looking for a minivan and my expectations are suitably reduced. The drivers feel in the Honda is better, but it's still a minivan and it's not that much better. This is also a compromise between my wife and me and while I see good and bad in both and would probably be equally happy with either, she has a very clear preference for the Toyota. Ultimately the purpose of a minivan is not to be a drivers car, it is a family car where everyone needs to be comfortable and enjoy the ride- and if it puts the kids to sleep all the better. When I want a driver's experience, I have an old Mazda Miata that virtually no Honda with 4 wheels can match for feel and handling.
#3486 of 3798 Re: Odyssey models vs Sienna models? [hansienna]
Apr 10, 2008 (10:44 am)
Toyota's option system is more a-la-carte.
It's not as simple as CE=LX, LE=EX, XLE=EX-L, and LTD=Touring. We only wish.
It's not like that at all, though. It's hard for the consumer to compare.
Yes, the CE windows are not tinted, but what if someone wants windows that are not tinted? Maybe they have poor night vision. Toyota gives you the choice, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.
I found that an Ody EX was roughly the same as an LE pkg 3 back in 2007. For 2008 the EX is roughly the same as an LE with EVP #2.
You trade-off small things. The Ody has dual climate control and a lazy susan, but the Sienna has a trip computer, puddle lights, power 3rd row vent windows, and a 3rd row that can tailgate..
For 2007, I also found:
Ody EX-L = Sienna XLE pkg 6
EX-L RES = Sienna XLE pkg 7
EX-L RES/NAV = Sienna XLE pkg 8
Roughly equal, not exactly equal. I'm sure anyone could find 2-3 things at least on each that the other would lack. Options packages for the Sienna have probably changed for 2008, but take a few minutes and you'll find similar matches.
You wrote "Power sliding doors ...expensive options on a Sienna LE"
Not true at all, the EVP #2 only costs just $383 at invoice, and you get that wonderful trip computer you mentioned. No way you can call that "expensive". It's a bargain, actually.
I love that trip computer. In fact I'm going to make sure the next car we buy has that feature, it's a must-have.
Plus, I got that on a pretty basic LE, on the Ody you basically have to be rich and pay the premium for a Touring. Basically most Odys don't have that at all.
Another mistake you made: "Cast wheels are ... expensive option on the Sienna LE".
False. They are now standard on the base LE, not optional.
#3487 of 3798 Re: ERRORS and comments for the well written "Big 3 Comparison" [yatesjo]
Apr 10, 2008 (11:07 am)
Ok, but its not uncommon to be able to purchase Odys below invoice PLUS incentives...I realize mine was an '07, but I paid over $1000 under invoice and got $2500 in incentives. I couldn't get any Toyota dealer to go below invoice on the Sienna, even now it happens on the Honda.
Well, I would respectfullly say that I don't really couch this in terms of driving enjoyment, but rather safe and secure handling responses. The Sienna, of course, is certainly not unsafe in any way, but if I have to execute an emergency maneuver, I'm glad I'm in an Odyssey. I also didn't think the Ody was much noiser than the Sienna--it has more ride noise, but less engine noise, at least to my ears.
Now, you have one additional piece of information there which trumps all the others: you say you wife clearly prefers the Sienna.
In that case, its an easy decision. Get the Toyota.
#3488 of 3798 Re: Odyssey models vs Sienna models? [ateixeira]
Apr 10, 2008 (11:24 am)
Having bought probably ten new Toyotas in the last 15 years (both business/personal) I can say putting the word “wish” and their “a-la-carte” system in the same sentence would be most correct. I’ve yet to get a Toyota exactly the way I wanted, even though the option combination was allegedly possible. My wife waited 5 months on her GX470 before they finally conceded it wasn’t going to happen the way she wanted. It’s a lot less a-la-carte than they’d have you believe because if they don’t feel like building that combination of features, they just won’t do it……sales literature be darned.
Is the Honda system better? No, but if nothing else you know your choices right from the start…..“take it or leave it”. The domestics always get positive marks on option availability when shopping and I’ve generally always walked away with very close to what I was looking for.
#3489 of 3798 Re: ERRORS and comments for the well written "Big 3 Comparison" [mfletou1]
Apr 10, 2008 (11:42 am)
When my wife worked for the MO conservation department she had to drive state vehicles and to do so took classes in defensive driving. As part of her test drives she takes each vehicle through emergency maneuvers she was taught in that class. She felt as confident or more in the Toyota than she felt in the Honda. I've never had a driving class in my life, so all I have is the seat of my pants.
Combine that with the objective results like slalom and skid pad and I don't think there is any strong ground to say that the Honda is a safer handling vehicle. In DOT crash test ratings the Honda has an advantage though.
The buying decision isn't as straightforward as you think. It starts with a go/no-go on if the van meets our minimum needs. After that it is a weighted decision based on price, utility, comfort, economy, driving preference.... etc. If the Honda dealers are willing to close the $1400 price gap or the Toyota dealers don't carry the van optioned to meet our minimum requirements, then it will be the Honda.
#3490 of 3798 Re: ERRORS and comments for the well written "Big 3 Comparison" [mfletou1]
Apr 11, 2008 (9:12 am)
Honda is definitely dealing more right now.
Like I said before, in May of 2007, the opposite was true. I'm not sure why that changed. Toyota's prices have been fairly consistent, actually. A new 2008 with the equipment I have costs about the same amount today.
It's Honda that has brought prices down. Dramatically. About $2 grand on the EX I was shopping back then.
That's good if you are shopping for an EX today. Terrible for resale values on 2007 EXs, for people who paid $27k, which is about what it was selling for a year ago.
I guess I just got lucky. I wanted VSC, rear disc brakes, and power sliding doors on both sides. Alloys wheels and a CD changer, too. That meant LE pkg 3 for Sienna, or Ody EX for Honda. Both had what I wanted. I was able to find both in plentiful supply.
Toyota has made it easier, as mentioned above VSC comes on all models, the alloys are standard on the LE, and there are fewer packages now. I do know what you mean about certain packages not being available in certain regions, that just didn't affect me here in the mid-Atlantic.
Apr 11, 2008 (5:30 pm)
There hasn't been any depreciation hit on Ody discounts whatsoever. Depreciation isn't as simple as vehicle A sold for x new, and therefore will sell for y now. Depreciation has a lot to do with reputation, not just transaction price. I can't believe what low mileage Odys go for...I have no idea why people by them. For a very small amount more, you can have a new one. But people still are buying them used.
#3492 of 3798 Re: Actually.. [mfletou1]
Apr 12, 2008 (7:26 am)
There hasn't been any depreciation hit on Ody discounts whatsoever....... I can't believe what low mileage Odys go for...I have no idea why people by them. For a very small amount more, you can have a new one. But people still are buying them used.
Are they actually buying them for these high prices or is that just what you see people/dealers asking? I ask that because some real-world trade-in numbers I've seen for Ody's are significantly lower than what I would expect at this point. On the real-world trade-in value forum here at Edmunds, an '05 Ody Touring with 44k miles just was quoted at $18,000-$19,000. That's lower than what I would have expected. Edmunds trade-in value on it is $2,000-$3,000 above that. Edmunds lists my '05 EX-L with NAV/DVD and 34k miles at $21,000 trade, $23,000 on a private sale and $26,500 for a certified used. If anyone seriously would pay $23,000 for our Ody....as much as we love it I would have to say "FOR SALE"! and I'll go buy a new one.
#3493 of 3798 Re: Actually.. [sebring95]
Apr 12, 2008 (12:39 pm)
Well, judging from a few in the neighborhood, I'd say people are still paying pretty good money. CarMax of course is a different beast, but my local one had an 07 EX-L with 20k that sold in 2 days for a 2 thousand more than I paid for my new one! (Some people are just...stupid).
$19k's not bad for a 3 year old 44k vehicle...that's probably 58% or so...
#3494 of 3798 Re: ERRORS and comments for the well written "Big 3 Comparison" [yatesjo]
Apr 12, 2008 (12:44 pm)
I mean to respond...on my Buick comment, you sort of saw as perjorative, not me. I stand by the comparison, it does ride like a Buick. Some people (like you) may want that, some others may not.
But I would say that the Odyssey is hardly nosiy or rough riding...just more so than the Sienna, which is indeed quiet, but also rather floaty and, in my mind, a little overly isolated. But if you want isolated, that's your car. But trust me...my kid sleeps fine in the Ody. And my parents drive an '06 DGC, so everytime they ride in my Ody, they can't believe how quiet it is!