Last post on Mar 31, 2013 at 4:37 PM
You are in the Vans & Minivans
What is this discussion about?
Toyota Sienna, Dodge Caravan, Chevrolet Venture, Mazda MPV, Kia Sedona, Honda Odyssey, Chevrolet Uplander, Nissan Quest, Hyundai Entourage, Van
#2813 of 3798 Sales numbers for 2005
Nov 16, 2006 (2:55 pm)
The local newspaper had an article written for the San Antonio Express-News on the new Nissan Quest that also had sales numbers for 2005. The numbers quoted were:
Caravan/GC/T&C combined: 407,570
Honda Odyssey 174,275
Toyota Sienna 161,380
Nissan Quest 40,357
Interesting that the combined DaimlerChrysler minivan sales were 31,558 MORE than combined Odyssey, Sienna, and Quest.
True, DaimlerChrysler does not have the monopoly on minivan sales it held for decades but the DC minivans are still the MOST WANTED by more people than the combined sales of the 2 closest competitors.
#2814 of 3798 Re: I need 2nd row windows to roll down - '01 T&C? [thegraduate]
Nov 16, 2006 (3:14 pm)
My 2006 Sienna LE has 2nd row windows that roll down (but NOT as far down as the Odyssey windows go).
The downside of roll down 2nd row windows is the noise from air turbulence at highway speeds. These roll down windows are NOT flush with the side of the van like the rear windows of the DaimlerChrysler minivans and are a source or road noise...down or up.
IF you never sit in the 2nd or 3rd row, the noise would not bother you.
#2815 of 3798 Re: I need 2nd row windows to roll down - '01 T&C? [hansienna]
Nov 16, 2006 (6:01 pm)
Well, I first thought of the Sienna, but I know he/she is on a budget, and I was afraid that a 2004 or newer Sienna would cost too much.
Do you know of any more vans older than Sienna that have roll-down sliding door windows?
#2816 of 3798 Re: I need 2nd row windows to roll down - '01 T&C? [thegraduate]
Nov 16, 2006 (7:56 pm)
The only thing that I know of is the 2000 and newer Mazda MPV, which might be available at a price similar to the Town and Country.
#2817 of 3798 Re: New Minivan Comparo [mrblonde49]
Nov 16, 2006 (9:48 pm)
Just another love fest with the over-hyped Honda Odyssey where problems are swept under the rug and glaring lack of features are ignored.
Why can't Edmunds and CR quote the actual price of each vehicle they test instead of MSRP? Why did they test an AWD 2006 Sienna Limited and then write that it was too expensive? Why didn't they mention the lack of fold into the floor 2nd row seats of the beloved Odyssey, Sedona, and Sienna?
When they weigh subjective areas very heavily, they can distort the entire conclusions to fit the biased, pre-conceived decision.
I was duped by the Edmunds test report of the 2004 Sienna and now own an inferior minivan that is NOT as enjoyable as was my 2002 T&C LX.
After the glowing reports about the Odyssey, I considered buying one until I recently saw my nephew's 2005 Odyssey EX (cloth) and was appalled at the grimy, unsightly front door armrests made of cloth. My 4 year old T&C LX front door armrests never looked as ugly as those of the 2005 Odyssey EX (cloth).
#2818 of 3798 Re: New Minivan Comparo 
Nov 17, 2006 (6:57 am)
First of all - WHO ARE YOU? Where is your username?
Second - "problems are swept under the rug"? Edmunds didn't have any problems (that I can tell) with the tester used in the comparison test. And after ONE ENTIRE YEAR with their long-term Odyssey Touring, the only 'problem' was a slow air leak in one tire.
Do you have any evidence that they had other problems which they 'swept under the rug' or are you just making stuff up?
"When they weigh subjective areas very heavily, they can distort the entire conclusions to fit the biased, pre-conceived decision."
Has it occurred to you that there may be a REASON they have a pre-conceived notion regarding these minivans? Afterall, they've had LOTS of exposure to several of these vans (with long-term tests of the Odyssey, Sienna AND the T&C).
Do you have reason to believe that if they only used OBJECTIVE measures that the results would have been different? Should they simply IGNORE things like steering/braking feel, material quality, ride, and appearance? Then you'd probably complain that they shouldn't put so much weight on things like acceleration #'s and roadholding #'s. Maybe the ENTIRE test should have simply been a comparison of under-floor storage volumes....
Agree that they should have compared the vehicles based on TMV rather than MSRP. Hey, and a further OBJECTIVE measurement might be then comparing the % of depreciation after 2 years and after 4 years.
#2819 of 3798 Re: New Minivan Comparo [rorr]
Nov 17, 2006 (7:47 am)
After ONE ENTIRE YEAR Motor Trend came up with something different than Edmunds long-term test, and that was with MT ranting on and on about how great the Ody was. Motor Trend writes, "And despite the unexpected maintenance issues..." & "mechanical failure of power sliding door-something none of us expected to happen on a Honda". i.e problems listed: radio antenna no reception(2 trips to dealer to correct), brake-noise, power sliding door failure, squeaks rattles and shimmies and excessive engine braking when downshifting into second gear. So, not everyone is lucky enough to only be getting an Ody with a slow air leak in one tire.
Now look at the now closed Honda Ody:Problems and Solutions Discussion... and you will see many of the problems noted above. As well as declining reliability reported in auto mags i.e Consumer Reports. The norm of problems seems more in line with Motor Trends publication than Edmunds. So considering the pre-coneived ideas(bias) many testers take with them into these long-term tests... it is understandable that many problems may be overlooked, or "swept under the rug".
#2820 of 3798 Re: New Minivan Comparo [jipster]
Nov 17, 2006 (10:25 am)
"Now look at the now closed Honda Ody:Problems and Solutions Discussion... and you will see many of the problems noted above."
Yes. That's why it's called a "Problems and Solutions" discussion. Although some of the items reported by MT (no radio reception) have NOT been reported in the P&S board, and one of the 'problems' (excessive engine braking when manually downshifting to 2nd) is simply a trait of a high-compression engine.
"As well as declining reliability reported in auto mags i.e Consumer Reports."
Declining reliability compared to previous edition Odyssey's or declining compared to other makes? And does DECLINING = below average? (If the industry average for minivans is 10 problems/100 vehicles, and the Odyssey goes from 4/100 in 2004 to 6/100 in 2005, that is both "declining" and still "above average").
Let me be clear: when I state the "norm" for Odysseys, I mean what the average buyer should EXPECT for Odysseys. If the industry average is 10 problems/100 vehicles and the Odyssey is at (for instance) 12 problems/100 vehicles, then that means that AT LEAST 88 vehicles out of 100 will have ZERO problems.
Now, I don't know what the industry average is for minivans in general. I don't know what the #'s shake out at for Odysseys's (or Sienna's/DCX/etc.) But I DO know that the "norm" for Odyssey's is NOT what was reported by MT. Do you have evidence that one CAN BANK ON having at least 5 problems with their new Odyssey?
I'll submit (again) that what MT experienced was NOT the "norm" (in other words, their experience is NOT what one would expect). I think the "norm" is more in line with what Edmunds found out with their long-term tester (slow leak in one tire) or what I or socalawd, or any number of OTHER Odyssey owners who generally contibute to this forum have found; satisfaction.
"So considering the pre-coneived ideas(bias) many testers take with them into these long-term tests... it is understandable that many problems may be overlooked, or "swept under the rug"."
Baloney. Are you saying that Edmund's HAD other problems with their long-term tester (like failing door motors) and simply didn't report it; BUT reported a leaky tire INSTEAD? Has it occurred to you that (surprise!) Edmunds may have had ONLY a single leaky tire?
If we follow your logic further, I suppose one could say that a pre-conceived bias would lead reviewers into MAKING UP problems where none actually occurred for vehicles they don't like. Do you think this happens too? Do you think that a publication would INVENT problems out of thin air just to back up their pre-conceived bias?
#2821 of 3798 Re: New Minivan Comparo [rorr]
Nov 17, 2006 (1:53 pm)
Wow.... yours is a long post.
I recall reading some posts in Ody P&S about trouble with the radio, though if you looked it up and there weren't any... then I guess I was mistaken. I didn't read anything in MT indicating the downshifting to second was done manually.
Yes, declining reliability compared to previous edition Odysseys. Yes, still above average...but falling.
O.k...you being clear about the "norm" for Odyssey makes sense. I would say 1 problem is closer to the norm than 5 problems. But, the point I was making about MT was despite this higher than norm number of problems they had during their long-term test... their report was still highly favorable. It just seemed they glossed over the Ody's faults, and over emphasized the positives.
"Baloney"??? You have a rough day at the office?
Look at what you quoted me as writing again. I'm not saying Edmunds deliberately avoided reporting problems. What is it that isell always says, when you have one person report of a squeaky drivers seat then all of a sudden everyone comes out complaining of squeaky drivers seats. It's the power of suggestion that comes into play. i.e "Well, my brakes may be squeaking a bit... but this is an Ody, so it must be my imagination"(i.e swept away) "Well, these Chrysler vans are suppose to be pieces of ****... so I'm going to find out why". (i.e swept away) Perception becomes reality... and pre-concieved bias in the testing/reviews is the result.
It took a long time for Toyota and Honda to develop their quality reputation, just like Hyundai has been doing. So to can it move in the opposite direction. The perceived quality and reputation can remain... even though the reality is reliability and quality are falling.
#2822 of 3798 2007 sienna navigation system
Nov 18, 2006 (1:28 pm)
Does anyone know with certainty if the 2007 Sienna Navigation system is the old touch screen only system, or is it the "new" Voice guided system as available in most upscale Toyotas? (Not asking about Blue Tooth - just Nav.)