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SUVs Honda Pilot Honda Pilot 2003 through 2005
6821 messages, Last post on Oct 21, 2009 at 8:45 AM
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Replying to: ralphuco (Nov 04, 2008 8:22 pm) |
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Replying to: jselm123 (Jul 22, 2008 6:32 pm) NHTSA can force Honda to recall / fix / redesign the VSA.
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Replying to: rodut (Nov 06, 2008 1:44 pm) |
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I don't think NHTSA would issue a recall because of 7 complaints. It will be hard to convince them that it is an inherent defect with the vehicle given that 7 vehicles are not even an atom in the bucket compared to the number of Honda Pilots sold. Worth a try, but you are better of trying to work things out with Honda in this case. |
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There are only 7 vehicles probably because the problem just started to show up. 2005 was the 1st year when VSA was installed on Pilots, so 2005 Pilots have the oldest VSAs, so the most likely to fail. Years ago I predicted that VSAs will kill people. I even had lots of posts removed from this web site (Edmunds accused me of SPAM, because I posted my post on about 50 discussion groups, if I remember correctly). Also the local newspaper accepted to publish my article about the dangers of a malfunctioning Stability System (January 2006). I also sent my article to NHTSA (January 2007). At that time I was predicting that when malfunctioning VSA will steer the cars randomly all over the place because of applying the brakes on one side of the vehicle (to correct for an imaginary skid, when the computer would receive a wrong information from a bad sensor). Well ... it seems that these days it applies the brakes on all wheels, not just on one side as I was predicting. ############################################################### The following is the letter I had sent to NHTSA (in January 2007), and their confirmation of receipt: Thank you for contacting the U.S. Department of Transportation’s Vehicle Safety Hotline Information Center. We appreciate the time you have taken to contact us and value your opinion. Your comments have been forwarded to the appropriate NHTSA personnel. However, if you need additional information on our services please feel free to contact us at 1-888-327-4236. Thank you, NHTSA.dot.gov Response Team Disclaimer: "This response is for information purposes only and does not constitute an official communication of the U.S. Department of Transportation. For an official response, please write U.S. Department of Transportation, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, 400 7th Street, SW, Washington, DC 20590. > Dear NHTSA, > > In my opinion you expose yourself to huge lawsuits by making the ESC mandatory (49 CFR Parts 571 and 585 - Electronic Stability Control Systems; Proposed Rule). Please, in the name of mankind, read carefully my letter. I am a 42 years old Electronics Test Engineer, so I know a lot about electronic systems. I understand that you have good intentions and want to protect us. But you don't see the whole picture. By only looking at the technical performance of new VSC systems you miss some major points: > 1) You miss the fact that these systems will kill people when they will become defective (because of age, vibrations, thermal cycles over many years, hardware bugs, software bugs, etc). You authorize a computer to steer a car ... well it will do it when needed, or when not needed (if defective). So some family somewhere in America will drive in straight line, on a sunny summer day, on dry pavement, and suddenly the old and defective steering sensor will send to the computer the wrong information (let's say "steering wheel turned max to the left"). The computer, thinking that the driver turned the steering wheel to the left, will apply the left side brakes to abruptly steer the car to the left (let's say in the path of an incoming 18 wheeler). Fortunately for you all of them will die, so it will be nobody to sue you. BUT after many people will be killed, some other family, another sunny day, could escape alive. And those people will sue you. > 2) The 2nd fact you miss is the impact of such systems on people's health. For instance my heart skips a beat (or a couple of beats) when the ESC system activates. Do you think that is "safe" for me ?!? It's because I don't expect somebody else to steer and brake my car. I never had any health problems when skidding on ice ! > 3) The 3rd fact you miss is that you create dumber drivers. Overconfident too. For 10 years I drove a rear wheel Volvo 240 wagon. It was skidding on snow all the time, but that was never a problem, because by instinct I was turning the steering wheel to the right position. New drivers, driving these ESC cars, will never have that instinct. So they will become dumber drivers. But they will be overconfident too, because they will trust the damn computer, which will let them down when they will try to break the physics laws (so they will go into the ditch). Do you think that the dumb&overconfident combination is safe ? > 4) In 10 years these 2007 cars will be owned by modest-income people, so it's likely they won't spend thousands of dollars to fix fancy electronic systems. Nobody will care about warning lights ! They will keep driving them and put all of us (your children too) at risk. > 5) Very limited testing. Testing of such a complex system (supposed in good health) cannot be done for an infinity of scenarios. Testing will be limited to a small number of road scenarios, and will also be done on young, properly functioning systems. No test engineer or designer will be able to know with 100% certitude that those systems will be safe. BUT I can tell you with 100% certitude that those systems will become older, and will malfunction, at a certain point in time. Isn't that obvious ? Do not believe that the diagnostic system will pick up any malfunctions. I spent my whole life debugging electronic systems, and I can tell you that there is an infinite number of possible malfunctions in such a complex electronic system (sensors, modules, wiring, connections, rusty grounds etc). A designer can't imagine and predict an infinite number of problems and scenarios. > > Solution: > In my opinion your ESC regulation should either disappear from the face of the Earth, or it should require manufacturers to install a separate fuse for the ESC system. With such a fuse available, any car owner would be able to PERMANENTLY disable a system authorized to kill him and his family (if defective), without disabling any other car electronic system (ABS, braking etc). Also if in 10 years a certain manufacturer realizes that it manufactured a million of dangerous cars, that manufacturer could issue a cheap recall (to remove that fuse), so cheaply convert a million of dangerous cars into a million of safe cars (ESC free). > > Final comments: > What nobody at NHTSA seems to notice is that for the 1st time in automotive history, the computer has been given the right to kill. And you want to make it a mandatory feature! > Can't you see the lawsuits against you ? Can't you see our lives at the mercy of a damn aging computer ?!
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Replying to: rodut (Nov 08, 2008 7:11 am)
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Replying to: ralphuco (Nov 10, 2008 12:52 pm) I remember some Toyota Sequoia owners complaining that they had landed in the ditch immediately after hitting a big snow bank with the right side wheels. They said that the Stability System sensed the sudden variation of the right side wheels speed, thought that the SUV was skidding, applied the brakes on one side, and that sent the SUV in the ditch. That triggered my idea about a bad wheel sensor sending the wrong information to the computer and triggering the computer decision to steer the car even if actually no skidding had happened. I was pretty passionate about this subject in 2006 after these systems were installed on the Pilots because I was planning to buy one, and was hoping to be able to have one without the electronic marvel on it. But now the cause is lost, I own a 2008 Pilot with the crap on it, so emotionally I am next to you and will follow what will happen in the future. My hope is that the VSA OFF switch (at the left side of the dash) can be wired such as it permanently disables the VSA. Now it always defaults to ON when you start the car, so you have to push it each time you start the car to turn VSA OFF. If you can't sleep because of it, just push the button each time you start the car. Or wait for the system to malfunction for the 1st time. If you are alive after that, you will find a way to wire OFF that switch ! The trouble with this technological marvels is not that we have to pay for them. I would gladly pay for these marvels if I could kindly put them in garbage immediately after buying them. The real trouble is that often after we buy them, we are stuck with them !!! Cheers
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Replying to: rodut (Nov 10, 2008 4:27 pm) Just wonder if any body has experienced any issues with VSA system. Yesterday, while driving on an interstate my car increased my normal braking so bad that the car completely stopped on a winter road, causing the cars behind me to almost hit me. I wasn't able to accelerate right away so I shut the engine off and back on, then I could release the brakes. It happened a second time 2 miles ahead. This was pretty annoying, scary and dangerous!. The car is now at the shop, I'm waiting for the dealer's call to see what they found.. Honda's website (http://corporate.honda.com/press/article.aspx?id=4110 ) reads: "Another key VSA function is recognizing emergency braking situations and almost instantly applying added braking force. This brake assist feature is controlled by a special logic in the system that determines when the pedal stroke and speed exceed a typical range - as they would in a panic stop...VSA is calibrated to function in a near-transparent manner, and in many cases a driver will not even be aware of its operation." Well, these were not "panic stops" at all! and I was very aware of its operation so was the people driving behind me. Any thoughts? Honda Accord Coupe 2008-V6 AT5 |
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Replying to: pchiu (Jul 12, 2002 11:28 am) This morning i left him a msg.to hold off,and the purchase happened at late hours of last night.In addition they are trying to sell me extended warranty for 7 years or 100k.miles whichever comes first,and if i don't use the warranty then they pay me back in full it is $1600.00 What do you think?
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