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Honda Civic, Volkswagen GTI, Coupe, Hatchback
#316 of 523 VW's reliability pales
Dec 04, 2002 (1:25 pm)
Compared to the SI or any Honda except the passport. There is no mainstream publication or source that would place the VW reliability above Hondas. And as far as resale you've got to be kidding. But no point going over that again. Honda sells over a 350,000 Civics a year whereas Volkswagen can't sell that many anything. 100K mile 1990 Civic Si's still command $4195 retail while a GTI of the same year is $3130 when optioned as a Civic Si.
Not to mention the Golf has been riding on the same twist beam rear suspension since it was a Rabbit.
But maybe that post was just trying to get something started...Nevermind.
#317 of 523 here we go again
Dec 04, 2002 (1:36 pm)
Mentioned here a while back and still available to beread on Edmunds site, there is a story from ALG(Automotive Leasing Guide) regarding residual value and resale values. ALG takes into account all aspects of car ownership in figuring out what the car will actually cost you in the course of years. They come up with what they call a TCO(True Cost of Ownership) which calculates what a car will cost you to own per year including repairs, depreciation et al. From these findings they concluded that Volkswagen ended up on top. Here's a direct quote from the story,
"According to the ALG, its Residual Value Awards honor "those vehicles in each segment predicted to retain the highest percentage of their original price." In other words, these are the cars that will be worth the most in three or four years, when most leases will end. In addition to naming specific cars for awards, ALG also gave awards to two manufacturers. Volkswagen of America won the "Industry Brand Residual Value Award" and Mercedes-Benz USA won the "Luxury Brand Residual Value Award."" Link to the whole story here http://www.edmunds.com/advice/leasing/articles/46807/article.html
Plus, VW commercials of late have also begun to claim the highest resale values in their classes, are you suggesting that VW is advertising falsely?
Again, since that study includes repairs as well as depriciation, shouldn't VW have scored much lower since their vehicles are horribly unreliable? Show me number to the contrary. Find some info which shows VW's resale values to be much lower than other similar cars.
#318 of 523 But we aren't talking about residual
Dec 04, 2002 (1:41 pm)
Benzes aren't known for relibility either. Durability yes, reliablilty no. They have thier issues.
When looking at pure reliability surveys the Civic will come out on top. There is no extrapolating from vague awards necessary for that. It's in black and white in any pure reliablity study you consult.
And as far as resale..I just showed you one. Since this is the GTI vs Civic forum I'm sure this has been hashed out before. Just read back.
#319 of 523 getting interesting again
Dec 04, 2002 (1:52 pm)
Quote - "100K mile 1990 Civic Si's still command $4195 retail while a GTI of the same year is $3130 when optioned as a Civic Si." - End Quote
So now you want to compare old vehicles, not the new ones. OK I can play that game. Go check the classifieds for an old air-cooled VW. Old Beetles and Ghias cost more to buy used now than they did when they were new, granted inflation have a part in that, but nonetheless cars hit a level where their depriciation levels off after a number of years. You compared a few cars now I'll do the same.
On the Kelley Blue Book site a 2000 Civic Si with 50K miles and no additional options other than those already selected in Good condition comes up at $12,905. selecting a 2000 GTI Turbo GLS with 50K miles as well and no additional options other than those already selected in Good condition gets a value of $14,340. Even adding the options to make the Si equivilent the value went up to only $13,215 still over $1,000 lower than the GTI. And a VR6 model goes over $15,000. So all those people out there paying over $15,000 for a used Civic Si are all getting hosed. Seems they are all just brainwashed into believing that VTEC is a godsend and their Si is actually worth more than $15,000, kinda funny actually. I may start investing in Si's. I'll buy them for what they are actually worth and turn around to sell them to the highest bidder, hell if I can make a few thousand on each car, why not.
#320 of 523 Who puts 25,00 miles a year on a car?
Dec 04, 2002 (2:20 pm)
Average miles for a car is 10,000 to 12,000. I'm sure your vaunted residual awards aren't figured on 25,000 miles per year.
#321 of 523 Let's be consistent....
Dec 04, 2002 (2:32 pm)
The 1999 Civic SI retailed for $17,494 new in 1999 according to November 2000 RT summary.
According to KBB 30141 area code retail at 45,000 miles is $14,910. $2600 loss in three years and 45,000 miles. That's awesome value retention.
Dec 04, 2002 (5:36 pm)
You have ALG .. I have Intellichoice. If you look at the total 5 year ownership costs the Jetta is rated better than average and the Civic is rated excellent. Over the 5 years the Jetta GL is $1700 below average while the Civic LX is $4700 below average. This factors in depreciation, maintenance, repairs, insurance, etc. It's notable that the Civic was the best overall value of the year in it's class.
If you look at ALG it did award VW the overall award but Honda held 3 top spots and the whole site seemed to say Japanese/European good .. domestic bad. It never said VW has a huge advantage over Honda and in almost every breath that VW was mentioned in so was Honda.
People who are paying $15,000 for an SI aren't being hosed if they can drive it for a year and then sell it for $14,000. If you look up 93-95 SI's in good condition they are still going for a pretty penny private owner .. if you can find one. Same with 91-93 GS-R's. The SI will remain in high demand because of it's easy nature to mod and it's reliability.
A 2000 SI retailed for $17,500. A 2000 GTI 1.8T retailed for $19,995. Difference of $2500. So if the GTI is only worth $1000 more the SI has made up $1500 and lost a lower percentage of it's value.
Dec 04, 2002 (9:48 pm)
And here we go again with the talk of previous Si resale values. The '99-'00 Si was a desirable car. It went for over-sticker new, as I recall. The resale of the unwanted '02-'03 Si is not going to fare quite as well. If it has to be given away to sell it new, you'll have to give it away to sell it used.
Now, a thought that a concensus could possibly be reached on... Si= better buying car, GTI= better leasing car? Not that there aren't great leasing deals out there on the Si...there's a very enticing $199/month $0 down 48 month lease available on leftover '02s (locally at least). I'm just throwing the thought out there.
Dec 04, 2002 (10:03 pm)
I drive 25,000 miles a year...in fact I drive closer to 40K per year.
And a 2000 model car could quite easily be (and probably is) 3 years old.