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3289 messages,  Last post on May 23, 2013 at 11:06 AM

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What is this discussion about? Chevrolet Malibu, Nissan Maxima, Mazda MAZDA3, Nissan Altima, Honda Accord, Honda Civic, Hyundai Elantra, Lexus IS 250, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan

Messages Page 294 of 329

#2931 of 3289 Re: '11/'12 Hyundai Elantra Limited vs. '12 Mazda3 i Touring vs. Dodge Dart SXT [backy] by plekto

Nov 20, 2012 (2:08 am)

Replying to: backy (Nov 19, 2012 7:37 pm)
IMO, a better choice for about the same money would be to get a basic Ford Mustang. With the V6, it gets 30 highway and is quite a bit more usable than the Dart. Also, a whole lot faster as well.
 
See, by the time you option out the Dart, you're pushing $18-19K, and it's not really much different than a basic V6 mustang in terms of features. Also, in terms of reliability, I'd put my money on Ford over Dodge.

#2932 of 3289 Re: '11/'12 Hyundai Elantra Limited vs. '12 Mazda3 i Touring vs. Dodge Dart SXT [plekto] by bpizzuti

Nov 20, 2012 (7:03 am)

Replying to: plekto (Nov 20, 2012 2:08 am)
Plekto, the OP is looking at compact, FWD, 4 door 4 cyl compacts with around 40 MPG. Where exactly does a 30 MPG RWD 2 door Mustang with vestigal back seats come in?

#2933 of 3289 Re: '11/'12 Hyundai Elantra Limited vs. '12 Mazda3 i Touring vs. Dodge Dart SXT [bpizzuti] by sebring95

Nov 20, 2012 (7:45 am)

Replying to: bpizzuti (Nov 20, 2012 7:03 am)
I'd recommend a Tacoma. They're really fast and get great mpg.

#2934 of 3289 Re: '11/'12 Hyundai Elantra Limited vs. '12 Mazda3 i Touring vs. Dodge Dart SXT [plekto] by mr_gone

Nov 20, 2012 (8:51 am)

Replying to: plekto (Nov 20, 2012 2:08 am)
There is also the basic fact that the cheapest Mustang costs close to $21,000 even with all available incentives while the Dart goes for $16,500, according to Edmunds True Market Value numbers.
 
But overlooking such factors is what our man Plekto is famous for, right?

#2935 of 3289 Re: '11/'12 Hyundai Elantra Limited vs. '12 Mazda3 i Touring vs. Dodge Dart SXT [mr_gone] by plekto

Nov 20, 2012 (11:18 am)

Replying to: mr_gone (Nov 20, 2012 8:51 am)
Actually, Truecar has a Dart at around $18K by the time you get the SXT version, which you have to TO GET AIR CONDITIONING FROM THE BUMS.
 
The Base model is a total stripper that even rental companies won't want to buy as it is below their minimum equipment requirements. I mean, who actually makes you pay for air conditioning and floor mats these days? What is this, 1990?
 
So you have to start with at least the SXT for $18K. Plus another $1100 for an automatic if you want that. And to add insult to it all, it's not the 40mpg highway turbo model. It gets 24/34 with the automatic, or a whopping 5mpg better than, well, a typical V6 sedan.
 
$19,540 was the price I got locally via truecar including destination charge. For a Dart with just A/C and automatic. Zero other options. Add in decent paint or better sound or anything else and you just hit $20K.
 
If he wants high MPG, it's $20K plus automatic, or $21K. The idea of a $16K car to run around in was left in the dust a long long time ago.
 
Remember, that a base model Prius, which has all of this standard as well is $23K. And it actually DOES get 40mpg. The second you hit 20K, you're faced with alternatives that crush the econoboxes flat. 20K for a Dart vs 23K for a Prius? He will save $500 a year in fuel with the Prius, guaranteed. And have a lot less depreciation than in a Dodge.
 
I keep bringing the Mustang up because it's a good vehicle and a stunning deal for the money. 300HP and 30mpg highway? That's got to be worth something in the calculation as well. Whenever I see econoboxes creeping towards 20K, I recommend it as it comes with all that stuff standard, is better built, and that 300HP engine is (IMO at least) well worth the extra thousand dollars.
 
When I recommend cars, I ignore the number of doors first, since it's really an aesthetics thing and very low on most people's list of must-haves, generally. 2 vs 3 vs 4 vs 5 doors is usually a "whatever" if push comes to shove. A lot of people can manage to live with a 2 door car if it's just hauling around the occasional friend or maybe fitting a child seat back there.
 
I also largely ignore MPG if the poster is asking for the impossible. 40mpg means a TDI engine or a hybrid. Anything else in real-world driving won't get better than about 30mpg combined. LOT of cars get 25 combined or so, though. Like a bog standard 4 cylinder Camry. Or 3/4 of everything GM makes aside from its trucks. Anything that does get 40mpg highway, though, is well over 20K. Every last one of them charges you a small fortune for that MPG gain, be it a hybrid or a super economy engine.
 
Unless he drives 50K a year, 5mpg isn't worth having to settle for a tin can on wheels. Which is kind of what the Dart is unfortunately turning out to be. It's nice, but it's just not worth $19K.
 
*****
Now, if he wants a simple thing to get around in and needs 4 doors, for 16K or less, he might consider a Jeep Patriot. It's really a small wagon that's been lifted 3 inches. I consider it a wagon and not a SUV in any case. Jeep does as well, considering that it has a "brother" version which is the Compass. Unibody construction as well. Not a truck by any stretch of the imagination.
 
That said, it does drive well. It's dirt cheap. It hauls a lot. 23/30 isn't so bad, either. So why consider one?
 
http://www.truecar.com/prices-new/jeep/patriot-pricing/2012/
 
$14K.
 
It's the price of a Yaris for the base model. Add in a few options, air conditioning, and you're still just under $16K. And that's the OP's real price goal. The only real down-side is that you must get the manual. It's a good manual as well - easy to drive. But it will save you a fortune later on as the CVT is a hateful thing that's expensive to fix - just avoid it and get the manual. It's the least expensive new vehicle that I know of that's worth considering.

#2936 of 3289 Re: '11/'12 Hyundai Elantra Limited vs. '12 Mazda3 i Touring vs. Dodge Dart SXT [plekto] by bpizzuti

Nov 20, 2012 (11:11 am)

Replying to: plekto (Nov 20, 2012 11:18 am)
He was looking for 40 MPG highway, which is perfectly attainable in a non-TDI, non-hybrid. Your excuses are very thin here. There's no way you can tell me a Mustang gets the same MPGs in any way as a Mazda3 or Dart.
 
Then again, why am I bothering? you've made it perfectly obvious you don't listen to people.

#2937 of 3289 Re: '11/'12 Hyundai Elantra Limited vs. '12 Mazda3 i Touring vs. Dodge Dart SXT [plekto] by sebring95

Nov 20, 2012 (11:21 am)

Replying to: plekto (Nov 20, 2012 11:18 am)
I'll give you the AC comment...there's only a few vehicles that don't come with AC these days (Civic DX for one....) but floor mats are becoming more common as an option. In theory I would put it as a plus because I always end up with all-season mats anyway. In fact, I was just tripping over 2 sets of new OEM carpeted floor mats piled up in the garage. The catch of course is that the dealers order them on all the models so you get stuck with them anyway.
 
Mustang is no doubt a nice car for the money. But you're likely going to take a 10mpg hit over an economy car and even for someone driving 15k a year, that can add up. $50/month in fuel is a lot if someone really doesn't need something like that. I'm dropping an extra $200/month on fuel driving my Pathfinder vs a car...but I don't like cars!

#2938 of 3289 Re: '11/'12 Hyundai Elantra Limited vs. '12 Mazda3 i Touring vs. Dodge Dart SXT [bpizzuti] by plekto

Nov 20, 2012 (12:05 pm)

Replying to: bpizzuti (Nov 20, 2012 11:11 am)
The 40mpg Dart is 21K with just the Automatic transmission added and no other options.
 
The Chevy Cruse Eco is $22K
 
The Prius is $23K.
 
The Mazda 3 i sport which does get 40mpg (all other models are not even close to 40mpg) is $19,600. If you can find one with no other options, that is. I guess $19,600 *is* technically under $20K...
 
A VW TDI is close to 25K. Ouch.
 
40mpg and under $20K is almost* impossible. So I generally ignore it and look at other factors. 30 or even 35mpg highway, though, is quite easy to do on the other hand.
 
* There is one and only one option legitimately under 20K. And that's the Honda Insight. It's $19,200 including delivery charge. It comes with everything standard. I don't mention it most of the time, though, as it is frankly a rather nasty car to actually drive. No power, paper thin interior that's just to look at, and hopelessly budget everywhere you look at it. Add in a nasty CVT that's brain-dead, and the angst is complete.
 
For the price, considering it's a Honda and a hybrid, it's a great deal. But it's also such a let-down as well in so many ways. They tried to get good MPG out of it and they did. But they also sucked all of the goodies and soul out of it as well in order to get every save ounce of weight. To me, it feels like a 4 door wagon version of a Smart Car. It's lovely to look at but it actually makes me want a Prius more. And that kind of kills my soul a bit, just thinking about how a car actually is so austere and eco-maniac that it makes me think about a Prius.
 
Who knows? The OP might fall in love with the Insight. Me? Life's too short to drive a hybrid.

#2939 of 3289 Re: '11/'12 Hyundai Elantra Limited vs. '12 Mazda3 i Touring vs. Dodge Dart SXT [plekto] by markwillis

Nov 20, 2012 (12:23 pm)

Replying to: plekto (Nov 20, 2012 12:05 pm)
For one, in no way, shape, or form do I want a hybrid. Much less a Prius... blegh. Am I willing to sacrifice a little fuel efficiency for more power and fun factor? Definitely. I would possibly consider a Mustang if I got behind the wheel of one and got that rush from driving it, I'm sure you all know exactly what I'm talking about. Hell, what I drive now gets 12 mpg combined, so anything in the 30 range I will be perfectly happy with haha. I was considering the Dart for the extra fun factor that it might have given the engine and all the praise the 6-speed manual is getting, but from the looks of things and testimonies of people who have gotten to drive one, the Mazda3 still takes that cake. I am certain this decision will come down to a good amount of test driving and letting my heart decide from there. The only thing is I have to wait a month to return from this damn deployment, so I was at least trying to get it narrowed down to a few cars. If there's one thing I'm absolutely sure of it's that I do NOT want a stinking Prius, or ANY hybrid for that matter. I want to feel alive driving it, not feel like the engine is about to rip out if I put a little foot in it. If that means sacrificing a little fuel efficiency, so be it. I'd really rather not drop below 30 mpg hwy though, if I can help it.

#2940 of 3289 Re: '11/'12 Hyundai Elantra Limited vs. '12 Mazda3 i Touring vs. Dodge Dart SXT [sebring95] by plekto

Nov 20, 2012 (12:26 pm)

Replying to: sebring95 (Nov 20, 2012 11:21 am)
Mustang is no doubt a nice car for the money. But you're likely going to take a 10mpg hit over an economy car and even for someone driving 15k a year, that can add up.
 
I usually try to compress multiple responses, but I thought a little math would be informative. Not anything personal, mind, you, but because there are so many lurkers who are obsessed with MPG.
 
15K miles times 3.50 a gallon (national average is a bit lower, but this makes the math easier).
 
32 mpg combined car (40mpg highway Dart) is 469 gallons.
25 mpg combined car (30mpg highway) is 600 gallons. That's about $450 a year in extra fuel, or about $38 a month.
 
Q: is it worth $38 a month to drive a car with no power, no features, and that costs a 2-3K premium over a standard car (say a Honda Fit for $17K)? I personally don't think it's (normally) good economics to chase MPG at the expense of everything else. Because a Honda Fit (as an example) is about 3K less than the 40MPG cars.
 
With a combined 29mpg, that Fit vs a Dart or Mazda 3 can end up being ten years to make up the difference. (note - it's a never break even scenario with VW and some hybrids)
 
Note - a Honda Fit is also a nice choice for him. The low weight actually makes it fun to toss around. I forgot about it for some strange reason.

Messages Page 294 of 329

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