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Station Wagon vs SUV

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#873 of 1426 Yes, Rim is crowded by boaz47 Jul 02, 2003 (11:19 am)
with Subarus. Compared to WRC you would think they only raced Subarus in SCCA. I still am having trouble getting into rally racing. It is a bit like watching speeders go by on a old deserted highway. The people I went with are into this thing and we packed in a lunch and cold drinks and ate a lot of dirt. I am afraid the Baja 1000 is as close to Rally racing as I had ever been before. And in that you could see one class pass another now and then. Seemed a bit more like racing as my North American mind would recognize.   What I would have expected however is that these cars would be all over our many desert roads and dry lake beds simply because they see quite a few now that the WRX has been imported. But no, they try to turn them into street racers and that quite frankly is not their strongest suite. Remember that except for the mountains where I live most people will get maybe 14 days of wet streets all year. Half of those wet streets are at night when people are at home. A stock WRX is no real match for a RSX on a winding twisty mountain road without some serious straight a ways.   Different areas so different cars interest enthusiasts.
#874 of 1426 Huh? by paisan Jul 02, 2003 (11:24 am)
I beg to differ, typical un-informed opinion there. AWD helps in both wet and dry. So you think an RSX in a tarmac type areana STOCK for STOCK will outpace the WRX? I'd like to see that.   -mike
#875 of 1426 by ateixeira Jul 02, 2003 (12:03 pm)
14 days of wet streets in SoCal, maybe.   Like I said, in DC we've had only a few weekends so far this year that were dry. We had 6 significant accumulations of snow, including that blizzard with a couple of feet.   And we're south of the Mason-Dixon line!   mike does have a point, I test drove several FWD-based AWD vehicles, the ones that are in FWD until you slip. They feel a lot different in day-to-day driving, for instance they have torque steer. They also push more (understeer more). I just didn't like the way they felt.   With Subies, torque steer is non-existent, and they handle more neutral. In the dry. In the wet there is no comparison, AWD rules.   -juice
#876 of 1426 by lark6 Jul 02, 2003 (12:48 pm)
Re post #871: I was there and saw juice do it, heck I was driving behind him myself.   subewannabe: I ran with that NC crowd in the late '80s - early '90s; that was my intro to Subies. Lots of work and play in north GA/TN/NC/SC. Memories of that time and friends' long-term successes with the cars stuck in my mind when I went car shopping in fall 1999. And here I am.   Ed
#877 of 1426 by ateixeira Jul 02, 2003 (12:59 pm)
Dug up some pics:   http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291908527   You have to register with imagestation but it's worth it. It's free and they send very little junk mail.   Notable pics include:   1. Karl Shieble's signed poster to our club 3. My Forester at the beach 4. Forester in Australia catching major air 5. Forester at Rally Cross 6. Forester at Auto Cross 7. OB towing a 4Runner out of a mud pit 15. Pine Barrens water crossing 17. Me driving through the woods   OK, I'm the odd ball that actually does some of this stuff, but it's never suffered any damage whatsoever.   -juice
#878 of 1426 Fake-Flying-Forester by oregonboy Jul 02, 2003 (2:50 pm)
Juice,   Are you perpetuating the (photochopped) airborn Forester myth? Bad boy!   -james
#879 of 1426 boaz' description of rally racing by subewannabe Jul 02, 2003 (3:24 pm)
sounds exactly like my reaction to gran prix racing through the canyons of downtown motown in the 80's....you heard an astounding amount of noise, a blurred object travelling incredibly fast moved down the two block section of street you could see, and was gone. unless you were on one of the hairpin turns, you had no idea who just drove by. admittedly, those gran prix folks dress nicer than the dirt eaters. does subie sponsor a gran prix team? mark
#880 of 1426 subewannabe by boaz47 Jul 02, 2003 (3:59 pm)
Yes, I felt much the same when I went to the Long Beach Grand Prix. But the same car did come by more than once so at least I could tell which one was passing by more often.   Do I believe a FWD RSX is faster on the dry pavement? Sure, almost 1000 pounds lighter. 200 HP sits lower stock and lower still after market. About as close to a type R as I will ever drive. In the Touring car events the Type R and BMWs are about the top of the class. Mazda is making a strong run and I think they even got Foo to drive for them. AWD adds weight and weight doesn't care how many wheels are driving it around a corner. Speed Challenge champs 2000 was a Type R I believe. 2001 may have been a type R as well. 2002 was a BMW I believe. I could go back and check if you would like?   Let me give you an example for my statement. Speed World Challenge Touring cars at Road Atlanta. 42 cars were entered. Fastest qualifying AWD car was a Audi A4 at number 35. Fastest Subaru was number 36. Number one qualifying was a BMW RWD and number two and three were Mazda ProtegeES and then another BMW. AWD doesn't help all that much in the dry I am afraid. At least not enough to cover the weight penalty it would seem.
#881 of 1426 Hmm by paisan Jul 02, 2003 (4:25 pm)
I guess you forgot my whole premis... STOCK TO STOCK. Not race prepped, I'm talking bone stock. And the RSX is 2100lbs? wow didn't realize that. If you want to talk racing, we can move the discussion over to the racing thread in the news and views area.   -mike   Edit...   RSX= 2721lbs, 161hp/141lbs torque, 6" of ground clearance, and 101.2" wheelbase WRX= 3126lbs, 227hp/217lbs torqu, 6.1" of clearance and 99.4" wheelbase RSX type S= 2778lbs, 200hp/142lbs torque, 5.9" of clearance and 101.2" wheelbase WRX STi = 3263lbs, 300hp/300lbs torque, 5.7" of clearance and a 100" wheelbase   I bet the F/R balance is closer to 50/50 on the subies also.
#882 of 1426 My mistake, thought you had a wagon. by boaz47 Jul 02, 2003 (8:12 pm)
But Race prepped or not AWD doesn't seem to be the big ticket for road racing touring cars. Say what you will they have been around for a while and still I see Acura, BMW and Mazda but not Subarus up front. If sir there is an advantage wouldn't they all be switching over? The debate over RWD, FWD, and AWD has taken place in other forums and no one has yet to provide that the extra weight involved in AWD offsets the advantages of lighter cars in that type of racing. In my preferred form of Racing AWD is a disadvantage, and in the results of Touring cars racing in SCCA it seems to be a disadvantage.   This also has very little to do with SUVs and wagons.   If it is an advantage maybe you can tell us why Subaru isn't tearing up the track at the Speed Challenge tracks? Looking at MotorTrends Slalom results it doesn't seem to give an advantage there either. So, it isn't an advantage in a drag race, it isn't an advantage in a SCCA touring Car event, and it isn't an advantage in a car magazines slalom results. Just where is it or what gives it an advantage in the dry stuff? By the way, MororTrend even spent the big bucks for the special wheels and tires on their WRX and still they were disappointed in the Slalom times that extra, close to 4k, got them. Being a Subaru fan I am sure you have read it?

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