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Station Wagon vs SUV

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#863 of 1426 Ed by paisan Jul 01, 2003 (1:11 pm)
Actually in NASA they run in G now. H is only the ultra econoboxes.   -mike
#864 of 1426 Oh well, that was last year :-( by lark6 Jul 01, 2003 (4:37 pm)
I haven't been out there yet this year, don't know if I'll get the chance either.   Ed
#865 of 1426 You know by boaz47 Jul 01, 2003 (6:11 pm)
Something I have noticed. Often people will say they don't understand why someone gets an SUV when a AWD wagon would serve them almost as well? I live close to Johnson Valley, home of the hammers for your rock crawling friends out there. I have been to Jack Hammer and Sledge Hammer. However while I often hear that for light off roading a AWD wagon would work I hardly ever see AWD wagons blasting down the graded dirt roads and off into the dry lake beds heading for the events that are held at these spots. In the last twelve years I have been going out to watch some of these events and do some off roading myself I have seen one or two Subaru's at the most.   While many have indicated a wagon will work it doesn't seem as if many people are buying into this theory. Now I know these roads aren't all graded and sometimes have some serious speed bumps and water dips that will catch you off guard as you blast down the road but still, far fewer wagons seem to venture off road than even the baby SUVs.   Some of you have addressed the towing issue with boats and Jet skis, but why not off road adventuring? Shoot, I remember driving for miles almost flat out across a dry lake bed not far from Barstow in a full sized RamCharger and not once seeing a WRX or the like in a place I thought they were designed for.
#866 of 1426 by ateixeira Jul 02, 2003 (7:37 am)
You should see pipercub's BRAT. That thing is a monster. His motto is "Have you driven OVER a Ford lately", and his BRAT probably could drive right over, say, a Probe. That was old school Subaru, though, low range and all.   One or two Subies, sure, but how many bone-stock Jeeps do you see on trails? I have a few buddies than own Jeeps and we've been on some off roading trips, even a Jamboree. Almost none of the Jeeps are stock. They're pretty much all lifted, and have off road tires, too. We broke brake lines, pulled exhausts apart, fried clutches, etc.   There are different kinds of off roading. Those heavily modified Jeeps go rock crawling, sure. Subies are bred for rallying, i.e. higher speeds over various terrain. It's different.   Try this - go to an SCCA Rallycross event. It's even nicknamed "Spec Subaru". They do those in Orange County, VA, for instance. All the Mid Atlantic Subaru boys have been.   So you haven't seen many Subies off pavement, well, you haven't been looking at the right place! I've been on the beach several times, a few orchards here and there, some farm runs, and a really fun run in the Pine Barrens.   But I'm in the minority, sure. 97% of SUV owners don't offroad either, so only 3% do. Thing is they sell approximately 10 billion Explorers per minute, and just 50k or so Forester per year. So Subies are also outnumbered drastically.   -juice
#867 of 1426 Juice by jlemole Jul 02, 2003 (8:28 am)
You mentioned a run in the Pine Barrens. I assume you mean the New Jersey Pine Barrens? I would love to do something like that, do you know of anything coming up? I used to take my Rodeo through there when I lived in South Jersey. Miles and miles of sugar sand roads interspersed by the occasional mining pit.   Jon
#868 of 1426 jlemole by porknbeans Jul 02, 2003 (8:31 am)
Try talking to Paisan, he's even got a webpage on the stuff. (And I'm a big enough geek to have gone to it).   Oh Mike....
#869 of 1426 ateixeira by boaz47 Jul 02, 2003 (9:07 am)
But you have helped to make my point. One of the many posters here has echoed the complaint that SUV owners rarely go off roading anyway. They have even gone so far as to say a AWD wagon would "serve" those same buyers as well. Truth is even AWD wagons don't drift off the hard stuff very often. Yes I have seen Subarus in rallys. I live close to where they have the Rim of the world rally.   I wasn't just indicating that I didn't see AWD wagons in the events I went to. I have seen lifted Zukes there doing quite well. I have seen old Brats that might climb over a Probe, one of our Jeeps can climb the hood of a F-250. That isn't the point either. The point is there are lots of fire roads, dirt roads through the desert, and dry lake beds. Now from the many posts we have seen in here you would expect that while out on one of these roads I would hardly ever see a SUV. As you said, only about 3 percent of the time? But I do see them. I see lots of lifted Jeeps, true, and that is to be expected. I travel back in the mountains exploring old silver mines and abandoned mills as well. So yes I know I must already be in the minority of SUV and Truck owners. But granting that I do off road you have to admit I would be in a position to see WRXs, Rally cars, Lancers, rally cars, and any number of AWD wagons or vans, driving to or from these events or explorations.   I know we are expressing opinions in these forums but it does seem strange to complain about the low number of SUV drivers that off road when the number of Rally car drivers may represent an even lower number of drivers using their cars they way they were designed. If you get my point? Who then is the more guilty of being a pretender? Who then is the more worthy of throwing rocks at their reasons for buying their vehicle? The sports car driver that never drives his car at a sporting event, or even to a sporting event. The Rally car driver that never drives his car at or to a rally? Or is the real issue that one vehicle is more popular than the other and somehow that isn't fair?   See how easy the issue of need and or useage can turn against you? It all just depends on where you are standing.
#870 of 1426 specialty offroad vehicles by subewannabe Jul 02, 2003 (9:24 am)
are as varied as the imaginations of their owners. i used to drive a '71 duster with lifts, leaf springs from a 'cuda and custom oversize rims i made by welding up and drillling new holes in some steel rims from a ford pick up truck and mounted snow tires on the rear. it was bright lime green and only had the 196 cid straight six and a 3 spd MT on the floor, but it went practically anywhere.   the funny thing about the wrx wagon, and so many of the new small wagons, is that its shape severlely limits the usability of its rear cargo area unless you fold the rear seats down, thus making the Forester or other small SUV eminently more practical. i think that must be why the ford escape is so popular...smaller SUV but retains the higher driving position and the cuboid storage area.    As for the offroaders in this part of North carolina, almost all the climbers, runners , paddlers and bikers drive subarus, especially outback wagons, or small to mid size japanese SUV's..nobody in the tahoe/expedition class, and even my exploer is the big car in the bunch. we drive to the trail head and hike, ride or paddle from there. subaru's very public sponsorship of so many outdoor sport events around here probably helps their popularity with that crowd. there really isnt anyplace in the mountains to do high speed offroading in your vehicle...its just too steep and tight.
#871 of 1426 by ateixeira Jul 02, 2003 (9:41 am)
Jon: yes, in NJ. Drove by a few of the mob's corpses, I'm sure.   Did you go to the Rim of the World Rally this year? NASIOC had one of its biggest meets ever. It was huge. I bet the parking lot was 30% Subies.   OK, you see SUVs, and hardly see Subies. Let's keep something in mind, though. Subaru has a 1% overall market share, and that's only recently. It was more like 0.5% back in 1995.   You're more likely to see older vehicles on those trails, so if 1 out of every 200 vehicles you see are Subarus, then that means the same percentage of Subaru owners go off road. In other words, they are statistically well represented.   What % of owners Rally their Subies? I'm sure it's about the same as the % of SUVs off road. Good point.   But at least the AWD is in use full-time. Look how often it rains or snows. Here in DC, we've had something like 7 dry weekend so far this YEAR! The extra ground clearance gets you over speed bumps without scraping the bumpers.   So sure, they're lighter duty than SUVs, but you're more likely to use them as intended even in daily driving.   Most 4x4s have part-time systems, those will get used much less often, is my point.   -juice
#872 of 1426 I offroad Often by paisan Jul 02, 2003 (11:07 am)
And I've never seen the following offroad:   Suburban Expendition Excursion F250 Dodge 2500 Chevy 2500HD   Rarely seen: Blazer S10 Blazer K5 Explorer Trailblazer Yukon Tahoe F150 1500 series Dodge/Chevy Pathfinder   Most often seen: 4-runner Discoveries Jeep Wranger Jeep Cherokee Isuzus Suzuki   Most of the serious off-roaders build up their vehicles from stock and therefore can't be counted into "offroad vehicles" I'm not talking skid plates and minor 1-2" lift or rockerbars or bumpers, I'm talking about 4" body lifts 2" suspension lifts, sawzalled fenders, lockers, etc. etc.   Check out my webpage, especially the events section. http://isuzu-suvs.com for pics of subies offroad as well as all kinds of offroaders.   -mike

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