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Station Wagon vs SUV

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#753 of 1426 Dual-range... by rsholland Jun 15, 2003 (6:25 pm)
We used to have it here. SOA decided to drop that feature, as well as the Hill Holder clutch, back in the early '90s. The Hill Holder is back for only the Forester, as of now. Again, this feature is widely used in other markets.   Bob
#754 of 1426 no jet skis behind subarus by subewannabe Jun 15, 2003 (7:35 pm)
in western north carolina, subaru is a major sponsor of many bike, triathalon/extreme challenge and white water events. you see lots of bikes and boats on top of subarus, but almost never a subaru towing anything with an engine, except maybe a log splitter. i think it comes down to the subjective values of how we see our auto as an extension/expression of who we are. at least in my area, subaru owners are also into a lot of physical fitness activities and see themselves as quite different from bmw x5, cadillac escalade or lincoln navigator owners for example ( i've yet to see a kayak on top a navigator or escalade). many i know would starve before climbing on a jet ski. different strokes... mark
#755 of 1426 subewannabe by boaz47 Jun 16, 2003 (4:32 am)
I had wondered if driver personality and values had anything to do with it. I haven't ever seen anything on to of a Navigator or Escalade let alone a kayak. I happen to live by a two small lakes. I can not remember ever seeing a Subaru at the boat launch. When I lived by New Port beach it was understandable because Subarus were rare there anyway and most ocean boats are a bit heavy.   I don't think I have seen a CR-V or a RAV4 towing anything either. I did see a RAV4 with a tow hitch the other day however. I even see Jeep Wranglers pulling jet skis, and some times even a Snowmobile, but not Subarus. That was one of the reasons I asked. I was wondering what others had observed.
#756 of 1426 with rear seats by nippononly Jun 16, 2003 (9:17 am)
down, Matrix has a lot more space to put stuff than the new OBS - that was easy to ascertain from a short examination of the Subie when I was at the dealer. I don't know how much the new model grew from the old one I had, but it couldn't have been all that much - sitting in the rear seat was still cramped.   Matrix AWD has a fully independent suspension like Subarus - the rest of the Matrix line does not. Actually, I had a Matrix AWD for a couple of days as a rental - this is one car that strains at most speeds to accelerate, and makes the noise to tell you so! If my emphasis had been on getting an AWD car, I would definitely have tossed Matrix off my list, and probably gone with Forester. BTW, I am a wagon fan, and I call the Forester a wagon!   Subaru takes AWD much more seriously, and for a longer time, than any other competing carmaker except for premium brands like Audi. They know how to do it and get it right, and since the intro of the 2.2L engine, and now the 2.5, they know how to put in a powerful engine to compensate for the extra weight, too. Fuel economy is the downside, but that is to be expected in any AWD vehicle.   Me, what I would like to see is for them to spin a trucklet off of the Legacy platform, raise it higher than Outback, and give it a real 4WD with low range in a transfer case. They went halfway to my objective when they brought out Baja - now raise it further and give it that transfer case. Also, given ALL my druthers, I would rather see it have the H-6 than the turbo engine, but that is just me. Make sure there is a manual transmission available, and that is my next purchase!   Alas, since transfer cases are already doing a disappearing act in the SUV realm, it is highly unlikely we will see them BROUGHT BACK for cars like wagons or crossovers...
#757 of 1426 True, by boaz47 Jun 16, 2003 (9:35 am)
Very little true off road exploring can be done without a transfer case. No low range means getting stuck more. True again with the Pseudo SUVs not having a transfer case. Which might make them all tall wagons. JD Powers places the Forester with the SUV group when you search the mid sized bracket for vehicles like Pugnose was looking for.
#758 of 1426 Nip... by rsholland Jun 16, 2003 (11:46 am)
Alas, since transfer cases are already doing a disappearing act in the SUV realm, it is highly unlikely we will see them BROUGHT BACK for cars like wagons or crossovers...   I'm not sure I agree with you on this. Popularity seems to run in cycles. Crossovers while popular now, may not be in 5 years...   I think once everybody has crossovers, someone will introduce a SUV with some more traditional virtues (transfer case, for example), and it will be a hit.   Witness the HUGE success of the Nissan Xterra & the Hummer H2. These two vehicles are about as anti-crossover as you get, and they're selling like hotcakes. I really don't believe everyone wants a crossover.   Bob
#759 of 1426 Ever since the early by boaz47 Jun 16, 2003 (12:27 pm)
80s I have been reading that the day of the SUV is over. For the last few years trucks and SUVs have accounted for about half of the vehicle sales in the US. How many are crossovers and how many are effecting trucks verses cars I have no idea. Every auto show they seem come out with new SUVs. Once Porsche made a SUV I knew they were here to stay.
#760 of 1426 It's a little early... by li_sailor Jun 16, 2003 (12:37 pm)
...to talk about the demise of the transfer case. Most SUVs sold today have them. Whether they're used or not is another story   While it's true that there is a strong trend to crossovers, or car-based SUVs, over 60% of current SUV sales is of truck based varieties.   In the top eight SUVs alone, 5 have a transfer case (Explorer, Trailblazer, JGC, Expedition, Tahoe).   SUVs have been around a long, long time. Longest running US model vehicle in production is an SUV (Suburban) IIRC. And they're here to stay, for sure. Question is how long they'll stay at 25% of sales or how soon they'll return to 10%.
#761 of 1426 Bob by nippononly Jun 16, 2003 (12:46 pm)
I sure hope you are right! I am convinced the reason for Hummer's success is pure hype and image, but the XTerra sells on the fact that it is one of the few SUVs left that can still be used for rugged duty. And it does so at a lower price point than Nissan's other SUVs, lower than most competing models in fact.   Now that Land Rover and Toyota have gentrified their 4x4 trucks to the point where they are too much suburbia and not enough rock-crawler, there are very few outstanding offroad trucks left. I would dearly love to see that spark a resurgence in real trucks, but I think mainly automakers except Jeep will leave this duty to their heavy-duty pick-ups from now on.   Using a unibody for a people hauler makes it possible for new crossovers to share platforms with each company's sedans, and putting in a real transfer case just adds weight and cost for something 97% of the owners will never use, or even know how to use.   boaz: people will always tell you that SUVs will never be dead as long as there is a Ford Explorer, because it totally dominates SUV/crossover sales. But if you take Explorer out of the mix, most of the new models, especially the ones with the hot sales at mid and below for size, are all crossovers. Also, I don't think Ford will bring out another generation of Explorer without making the switch. They already use AWD, not 4WD, on all the V-8 models, and even the V-6s run in AWD unless the driver selects 4WD. It is easy to foresee Ford going to unibody for the next Explorer and placing it on the new 500 model's platform (it has already gone to IRS, after all), and I would give it 50/50 odds they will drop the 4WD option as well - Explorer is a family hauler, not an offroader.   The full-size and extra-large SUVs will most likely stay true truck-based SUVs, but then again, they are a very small % of all SUV sales.   Any chance Subaru will build my "dream Baja"? What do you think?
#762 of 1426 by ballistic Jun 16, 2003 (1:50 pm)
nippononly writes, "Using a unibody for a people hauler makes it possible for new crossovers to share platforms with each company's sedans, and putting in a real transfer case just adds weight and cost for something 97% of the owners will never use, or even know how to use."   Which is exactly why I think Subaru ought to make the same dual-range transfer case that is STANDARD in markets other than North America, OPTIONAL extra-cost equipment here.   Most current Forester owners/buyers are quite content without a 2-speed case. They either don't tow anything or, if they do, it's probably less than a thousand pounds of off-road trail bikes, or personal watercraft, or small utility trailer for garden stuff.   However - by simply making the 2-speed case available (say, $500 extra) that same Forester can now be seriously considered for towing boats up to maybe 2000-2500 pounds, and actually being able to drag them out of the water and up the ramp. The 2-speed-equipped Forester would give up nothing to its brethren, but it would provide an entirely new capability that at least some of us would value very highly.   Now if this 2-speed case didn't already exist and had to be engineered from scratch at considerable expense, that might be prohibitive. But it's already on Foresters (as standard equipment, no less!) everyplace but here. Why would it not make perfect sense to make it optionally available (maybe even as a dealer-installed item, if necessary), price it at a level that would generate profits, and let people who need that capability get it in a Forester, instead of having to compromise - in many ways - with something like an Xterra?   You're not going to get fewer Forester buyers by doing this - you're only going to get more, and at least some of them are going to be a lot more satisfied with their purchase. Isn't that the goal? I just don't get Subaru's logic.   - jack

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