Last post on Dec 10, 2013 at 1:25 PM
You are in the Prices Paid - Buying & Leasing Experiences
What is this discussion about?
Honda Accord, Coupe, Sedan
#31118 of 32216 Re: Doc Fees [Michaell@Edmunds]
Sep 15, 2013 (9:05 am)
Michael, I think it is important to clarify. People make use of this forum to help get the best price and understanding the concept of pricing is imperative. When I was a grad assistant I taught introductory accounting so please let me provide the following example to the viewers of this forum.
Joe and Jim are brothers living together in Manhattan. They each want their own 2014 Honda Accord and they decide to have a contest on who can get the best deal for the car which happens to have an invoice price including destination of $25,000, the loser has to do the dishes for a month. They have friends all throughout the U.S. and they tell their friends if they pick up the car for them and drive it to Manhattan and pay for the gas, they can stay for free in their spare bedroom while in NY. Meanwhile, their mother is so happy they decided on a dependable Accord, she says she will pay the sales tax and TTL. Therefore, the only thing that matters is what they pay the dealer. They set a 5:00 deadline to find and negotiate their deals.
Joe finds a deal for $1,000 under invoice. Jim finds one for $575 under invoice. They both post the results in the Prices Paid forum at 5:01 pm.
A minute late, Joe sees a post by fxguy congratulating him on getting $1,000 under invoice on a 2014. After all, he recently congratulated someone for getting $700+ off. No one congratulates Jim.
Someone then posts that they would like to see all the details of the deals. Joe posts that he is paying $24,000 for the car and has a doc fee of $800. Jim posts that he is paying $24,425 for the car but his doc fee is only $75. After seeing that Jim paid the dealer $500 under invoice, Brian writes a congratulatory post to Jim on getting $500 under invoice on a 2014 at this time of year.
Would you rather pay the dealer $24,800 ($24,000 + $800) and get an attaboy from fxguy or pay $24,500 ($24,425 + $75) and get an attaboy from Brian?
X(sales price) + Y(doc fees) = Z(Cash Paid).
You want to minimize Z, thatís the only objective. Assuming the dealers are selling similar numbers of cars, their price to acquire the car is the same and they can afford to sell the cars at the same price. Why should a dealer in a state with typically higher doc fees deserve to make more when selling a car?
If I was a dealer, I would prefer to be in a high doc fee location. Why? Because I can always lower the sales price to make a deal with a savvy buyer who is shopping based on total paid to the dealer while for those like fxguy, I can make a deal on what looks like a good price on the car and then collect an additional large doc fee for additional profit.
Actually, I bet fxguy is a smart guy and that over the years fxguy has been negotiating based on total price but has done a poor job articulating what he is actually doing.
#31119 of 32216 Re: V6 coupe 2013 [sparkndutch]
Sep 15, 2013 (9:22 am)
Ok awesome advice. Thank you. Only things bothering me about this car is leather. It does not seem any where as nice as my 2003 v6 accord which still looks great with 196k miles.
#31120 of 32216 Re: V6 coupe 2013 [cardionp]
Sep 15, 2013 (10:22 am)
Most reviews mention that the leather is a lot nicer than the previous generation but I don't know about the '03 leather quality. The 2013 is nicer than my '01 Nissan Maxima, which I also really liked. It didn't have perforated leather seats.
#31121 of 32216 Re: V6 coupe 2013 [suydam]
Sep 15, 2013 (10:27 am)
Ok. Noted. Thanks.
#31122 of 32216 Re: Doc Fees [huskerfan5]
Sep 15, 2013 (11:19 am)
I tried to stop talking about this doc fee issue. I even went as far as not replying to Brian a few days back just to let it go but silly posts like the one you made with my name plastered all over it begs a response. Some of you guys simply jump in a conversation mid way and start replying without going back to get the whole story. For the LAST time on this topic (yes, i know i said that before), here is what i was trying to explain to the first guy who challenged bluemkn57 on Invoice pricing:
1. On EVERY car buying forum i have been on, Invoice price has always been what the dealer pays the manufacturer PLUS destination. Look at the main Edmunds page (Not the forum). Research a car and at the end they list invoice price as what dealer is known to pay the manufacturer for the car PLUS destination fees. This is the same on Truecar, carsdirect and most all other sites. Doc fees are not listed at this stage. That right there IS ALL i was saying. When talking about invoice price ON THE FORUMS, FOR THE SAKE OF CONSISTENCY, leave it at what dealer pays plus destination fees. That's it. Nothing more implied than that!
2. On post 31061, i clearly state that OTD is what matters the most. Matter of fact here is a direct quote: "However, you can and MUST consider Doc fees when talking about OTD prices. "
I am not a "newbie" when it comes to buying cars. In over 20 years of doing this, only a hand full of times did i find a dealer willing to budge on Doc fees. How do you make them eat some of that fee? Well, in my experience, you have 2 choices: (a) Ask them to reduce the selling price of the car by the same amount. Most dealers will resist this and many will let you walk instead of reducing it. (b) Load up on accessories and get them for "free" or at least a reduced price. In my experience, most dealers WILL do this. Therefore, if a dealer does not bend on a $400 Doc fee but you are able to get $300 in accessories for "free", you essentially just paid $100 for their Doc fee.
Please lets move on from this. I buy multiple cars a year based on OTD pricing only. I do my research here and other places and know how much Doc fees are. I know exactly how much i am willing to pay OTD based on all factors i.e invoice, doc fees, etc. However, when i am on a forum talking about how much below invoice i got, i stick to convention and use what the dealer paid PLUS destination to come to that figure. For the 4th or 5th time, i hope this explanation ends this debate. I know Doc fees must be considered when talking about the final OTD price. I just don't agree that a varying rate like Doc fees should be used on the forums when comparing how much under invoice members are getting.
Sep 15, 2013 (11:30 am)
Let's consider the last two posts on this topic the last two posts.
Some people have no choice, based on geography, but to pay higher doc fees.
Don't like it? Buy from a state that caps the fees, work to get the fees capped in your own state or negotiate the price to minimize the hit.
#31124 of 32216 Re: Doc Fees [huskerfan5]
Sep 15, 2013 (12:15 pm)
Well said..... as long as fx can secure that same selling price of 24,500 who cares how he arrived at that price. His system may work very well but seems alot more work getting that final OTD number instead of lowest selling price first, with doc fees already in the mix.. I find and this is just me buying like that leaves dealerships to many openings for game playing and to time consuming for me. This is what makes these forums like no others. Use what works best for you that helps you obtain the lowest price possible.
OTD pricing is doc fees, your states dmv, and taxes, NY/NJ has a small state tire recycle fee of 7. 50 and 10.00
Once i agree on price with any dealership with doc fees accounted for in my price.
This is my next question to dealers on the phone
Outside of your doc's, dmv, and taxes do you have any other chargers? Deal is now complete.
Fxguy wants to move on not realizing his posts will help some people in here get a better deal.
FX............. thankyou for sharing. your points are well taken.. There is no right way and wrong way to buy. Use forum tips and advice to your advantage to make the best deal.
Just imagine all the older folks, uneducated buyers in Florida paying that $699 doc fee/ admin charge with out a fight.
#31125 of 32216 Added warranty on 2013 Accord EX-L
Sep 15, 2013 (2:30 pm)
When I bought my new Accord yesterday, I didn't buy any extended warranties.
I'm wondering if I can add a warranty tomorrow? They offered a 200.00 warranty for (think 5 years?) for any damage I might do to a wheel. (I tend to scrape them on curbs.) Does anyone know?
All the discussion on doc fees? Doc fees are standard, I don't think the dealer is making a dime on this, so what's the concern?
I paid 699.00 as a dealer fee, that seems hefty, but the Honda dealership I've now bought two Accords from has a set price (like CarMax) and they don't negotiate.
Learned that I good deal with the EX-L 4 cylinder with leather at 26,882.00, so I'm pleased.
Also, I HAVE 5 DAYS TO RETURN THE CAR! Has anyone ever heard of such a thing? I asked why and they said some people have 'buyers remorse' or think they can find a better deal etc... I think that's amazing. They sold 15 Hondas yesterday by the time we left at 5 p.m.
Any ideas about buying the wheel warranty after the fact?
Thanks everybody, I LOVE my new Accord!
#31126 of 32216 Re: Added warranty on 2013 Accord EX-L [etienne39]
Sep 15, 2013 (4:18 pm)
I would have to read the "wheel warranty" paperwork but it's probably nothing more than an expensive insurance policy.
I would also like to read the fine print on that 5 day return policy. That is way too good to be true. There have to be strings attached.
#31127 of 32216 Re: Added warranty on 2013 Accord EX-L [etienne39]
Sep 15, 2013 (4:38 pm)
So they charged you a $699 doc fee and you think they didn't make a dime? And you can just return the car after five days and get your money back? You got to be kidding.
What exactly makes up the $26,882?