Last post on Dec 30, 2011 at 9:54 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Toyota ECHO, Chevrolet Aveo, Kia Rio, Nissan Sentra, Honda Fit, Hyundai Accent, Toyota Yaris, Kia Spectra, Suzuki Forenza, Sedan
Jul 20, 2001 (8:54 am)
No offense to your car meant.
I was thinking of Kias of more recent vintage like the 2001 Kia Sephia which had an average of 250 problems per 100 vehicles or the 2001 Kia Rio which had an average of 255 problems per 100 vehicles or the Kia Spectra which had an average of 295 problems per 100 vehicles or the Kia Sportage which had an average of 300 problems per 100 vehicles.
"Well made car from Kia,"
Jul 20, 2001 (9:06 am)
The looks of a car are purely subjective and I am glad that you love the looks of your Sephia. Personally, I just feel that the Sephia looks like your typical Japanese design from about 5 years ago. Very original!! Notice how car design has moved to emphasize crisp and sharp lines. The melted ice cube look is gone...
But, you are right. The Japanese should follow the Koreans. First, you design the body so that it looks "nice." Then, you design the interior so that it is roomy and functional. Once you are all done, then you try to squeeze in some safety. I know, the Japanese have it all backwards. First, they design safety, then the interior, then the body...
Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) Ratings:
Small Japanese Cars:
Good: Honda Civic
Acceptable: Mazda Protege
Acceptable: Nissan Sentra
Acceptable: Toyota Corolla
Poor: Mitsubishi Mirage
Small Korean Cars:
Poor: Hyundai Elantra
Poor: Kia Sephia
Small American Cars:
Good: Ford Focus
Acceptable: Ford Escort
Acceptable: Saturn SL
Marginal: Dodge Neon
BTW, Mazda is one of the only manufacturers that still do full-size clay mock-ups of their designs. Extreme attention is paid to the design, not only for aesthetics but also for aerodynamics. The Millenia, for example, has a coefficient of drag of 0.29. That is absolutely outstanding, especially considering that it achieved that 6 years ago.
Jul 20, 2001 (2:53 pm)
Let's be frank here, folks....no small car is particularly "safe" considering the size of almost every other vehicle. If I'm gonna be in a 40-mph collision of ANY kind, I want to be in a Licoln Navigator!
Does anyone know if those IIHS offset crash test results are to be interpreted as though the tested vehicle were involved in a head-on collision with the same size/weight vehicle?
PS - Didn't Subaru hit the sub-0.30 coefficient of drag with the first batch of XT coupes in 1987?
#354 of 3871 Re Mazda's extreme attention to design
Jul 20, 2001 (4:09 pm)
Two questions about Mazda's "extreme attention to design":
1) With Mazda's extreme attention to design, why can't they come up with a bumper design that protects the car from major damage in a 5 mph impact? According to IIHS' tests, the Protege is more than twice as bad as the lowly Elantra on this score ($521 average damage per test vs. $213). The Protege is also ranked below the Neon, Civic, Saturn, Sentra, Corolla, and Prizm on this test (of cars in our forum's scope). Of these, the Saturn ranks best (nice engineering on the space-cage perhaps), followed by Elantra. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to design a decent bumper.
2) Why can't Mazda design a body structure for the Protege that rates better than "average" in the IIHS crash tests? Now this one does take some engineering prowess. Perhaps the clay models don't help here--computer modeling may be more useful.
I'd love to go on here and ask other questions about Mazda's attention to design, e.g. how they can design a minivan that can't zoom-zoom out of its own way, or a sports car that can't deliver its advertised horsepower, or a compact sedan (626) that is a lesser vehicle than its previous generation, but that's outside the scope of this forum.
#355 of 3871 Mazda's a cash-drain.........
Jul 20, 2001 (10:36 pm)
of late. Not enough profits for those whom have financial stake in them. The Miata is nice and the 4-door sedans are sleek looking. The minivan appears to be a bit of a bust. Protege tries to look as good as the beautiful Sephia and looks way better than Toyota's Echo and looks somewhat better than Toyota's Corolla(though the 2003 design currently being sold in Hong Kong looks much better to me). In short, too many similar mundane-looking Japanese cars to fill and clog our nation's highways and biways dudes. Time for a little merge or aquisition action again.
#356 of 3871 cjaccetta
Jul 21, 2001 (3:38 am)
You'd be better off in a Sequoia, based as it is on the Tundra (rather than the F150, as is the Lincoln Navigator).
Remember -- mass and interia aren't the whole story. Structure plays a huge role as well.
Jul 21, 2001 (4:43 pm)
"Mazda's a cash-drain"...
Yeah, that's why Ford got rid of Kia and kept Mazda. Mazda's financial loss this year was from a one-time corporate restructuring (early-retirement payoffs) that completes Ford's restructuring plan at Mazda. Look for a total revamp of the Mazda line-up in the next three years with the return of the venerable rotary engine.
"extreme attention to design"
I was referring to exterior design. However, the 5mph damage tests conducted by the IIHS is hard to read. The repair costs (unless $0) only shows how much it costs to repair the car. Mazda parts are traditionally higher in cost. Another thing is that for some strange reason, Mazda uses a slight textured pattern on their bumper covers. You can't just repaint the damaged section; the whole bumper cover must be replaced to look new. Why do they do that? I don't know. However, I've been rear-ended twice in my '99 Protege at speeds between 10-15mph. Damage? Some paint chips...
Only two small sedans get "Good" body structure ratings on the IIHS offset frontal crash test. Those are the 2001 Honda Civic and 2001 Hyundai Elantra. Both of those vehicles are brand new designs, as where the Protege is going on it's third year. When the Protege is redesigned for the 2004 model year, it will get significant structural reinforcements. What I find interesting, is that the IIHS grouped the 2001 Protege with the 1999 and 2000. For 2001, Mazda made structural reinforcements to the engine pan, suspensions mounts, and safety cage. Why didn't the IIHS retest the Protege? Another question... why can't Hyundai use airbags that work?
The 2.5L Duratec used in the MPV is a parent company decision... with the Contour going out of production, Ford had to stick that engine in something. However, the 2002 MPV will get the much more powerful 3.0L Duratec. Have you driven the current MPV? I have always found it to be quite adequate if you let it rev up. It is certainly better than the 4-cyl DaimlerChrysler vans, or the anemic Quest and Villager.
The Miata? I can't explain that one. However, I'm sure Mazda will rectify the situation this coming model year. At least they came out and stated their error. Ford didn't do that when the same thing happened to the Mustang Cobra.
How is the 626 lesser than the previous generation? The new 626 is roomier, quieter, more powerful, and smoother than the previous generation. It doesn't really matter though, since the new generation is just around the corner and will be powered by a 3.0L DOHC V6 with S-VT and variable intake control.
Jul 21, 2001 (7:23 pm)
The offset crash test by IIHS is like the full frontal crash test by NHTSA. Results from both can be compared ONLY within the same class.
Now, the results of the side impact crash test done by NHTSA for any car can be compared to ANY other car.
Strange to say this, but the Echo scores as well in that test as the Buick LeSabre although the LeSabre weighs 1,600 pounds more.
And sorry, I cannot be Frank. I am Steve. ; )
#359 of 3871 Got a real up close and personal comparison
Jul 22, 2001 (11:14 am)
between my Sephia's rear end and the Toyota Echo's rear end. Yes, the Echo is so homely that I think Toyota engineers have a pretty good sense of humor. Similar to Pontiac Aztek. I know it's an SUV but homely is next to....whew! No, I'll take the aesthetically pleasing lines of the Sephia and it's good attention to design over any Japanese 4-door sedan. That goes for German(except Jetta)and all American sedans. The Protege is my favorite looking Japanese sedan available as I type this. A sporty look and good positive appeal to it. Corolla's hopefully changing starting in 2003 though word is they're not going to sell the design they're now selling in Hong Kong but the Corolla Altis design http://altis.com.my
If this is true it's off of my future consideration list. Too Corolla-typical for me.
#360 of 3871 They won't be selling the Altis here.
Jul 22, 2001 (1:42 pm)
They'll be selling a version developed specifically for the US market by Calty. We haven't seen it yet, so I have no idea what it's going to look like -- but enough people have hollered over the styling of the home-market car that hopes are high it will be much edgier and sportier.