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Low End Sedans (under $16k)

3820 messages,  Last post on Nov 24, 2008 at 9:45 AM

You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens

What is this discussion about? Toyota ECHO, Chevrolet Aveo, Kia Rio, Nissan Sentra, Honda Fit, Hyundai Accent, Toyota Yaris, Kia Spectra, Suzuki Forenza, Sedan

#21 of 3820 Value means more than price for features by majorthomecho Jun 01, 2001 (4:50 am)
It seems like when people use the word value in connection with cars, they mean just the price paid for the features you get. On that basis, yes the Kias and Hyundais are good values.   However, value (to me) also means quality of workmanship, how dependable the car is, and the resale value.   On the basis of initial quality alone, I don't think that the Kias are good values. According to the latest J.D. Powers survey of initial quality, the Sephia had 250 problems per 100 cars. The Rio had 255 problems per 100 cars. I believe the Sportage and the Spectra were right around there, but I did not write those numbers down.   Consumer Guide (please note this is different from Consumer Reports) has a category called value. 10 is the highest and 1 is the lowest. They gave the Rio a 1, the Sephia/Spectra a 2, and the Sportage a 1 for the manual version and a 2 for the auto version.   Finally, Money magazine had an article about cars a few months back. One fact that they listed was the resale value of cars after five years. The Rio will be worth 23%. The Sephia will be worth 22%. The Spectra will be worth 20%. The Sportage will be worth 31 or 32% depending on the trim level.   Kias have improved, don't get me wrong. But topping the Japanese, I don't think so.
#22 of 3820 Message from Edmunds.com's PR Director by pat HOST Jun 01, 2001 (7:44 am)
Hi friends,   Catherine Heins is looking for people to interview who have switched from American to Japanese cars in the past few years-- especially folks who wouldn't have given a Toyota or Honda the time of day in the 1970s.   She's a business reporter at the Yomiuri Shimbun, which is the biggest daily paper in Japan with a circulation of 14 million. They are writing a feature story about Japanese automakers' continuing success in expanding production in the U.S. and snatching market share from the Big Three even on their former home turf of light trucks.   If you fit this description and are willing to be interviewed, please call her directly at 212-582-5827 or e-mail her at catheinsyahoo.com. As always, you can contact me at jfallonedmunds.com if you have any questions.   Thanks,   Jeannine Fallon PR Director Edmunds.com
#23 of 3820 Unfortunately for you, major, you skipped body design. by iluvmysephia1 Jun 01, 2001 (8:51 pm)
The Toyota Echo looks a lot like it never got over the lasagne and wilty salad served at the value buffet on that busy Sunday afternoon 4 months ago and had to resort to uncomfortable measures to breathe again. All of that drivel you posted about Kia from Consumer Guide (like we're going to start drooling in instant appreciation) adds up to hill of dried livestock chips when it's all said and done and expired. Those car magazines are slanted, paid off, uninspiring, uneducational and stuck in a huge Japanese rut that needs to exposed for the lie that it is. I see Mr.major's going to leave his trail of anti-Hyundai/Kia literature at every Edmunds.com site that Kia is slandered at. Okee-chokee! Kia and Hyundai are here selling cars with great warranty's, low prices and great looks. Japanese models are overpriced and uninspiring. The Echo can't hold a shakey candle to Kia's Rio in looks. Mechanically the Rio's there and the warranty, price and better looks make it an easy decision.
#24 of 3820 Your reading more into things mecho by bluffhouse Jun 02, 2001 (11:47 am)
J.D. Powers does not mention reliability in thier report. All they report are defects. Defects range from very small like a warpped trim piece to quite severe like a transmission. Either way, most the cars built today are quite reliable. With the Korean cars, Hyunda/KIA is the current leaders in safety with Daewoo not having released it's new Leganza. As for performance, the the four cylinder category, the Leganza has the highest top speed, highest skidpad and compareable braking to Both the Accord and Camry. The Camry has safety weaknesses in side impact structural integrity. Other ares untested and unconfirmed are roll over and rear end crashworthiness. Outside of that, the Koreans are all ready also buiding more attractive vehicles than the Japanese. In al respect, the Japanese are no longer a benchmark for the Koreans, but the Koreans are the benchmark for the Japanese.
#25 of 3820 It's funny by majorthomecho Jun 02, 2001 (3:03 pm)
It is funny that 9 times out of 10, people have to fall back on attacking my car's looks.   Okay, I take it that you (Iluv) don't trust car magazines. What about actual owners?   AutoPacific does surveys of actual owners annually and how satisfied they are with their cars. 1,000 points is the most you can score. Kia Sephia owners gave their cars a score of 576. The Sephia is in the compact car class and only the Dodge Neon had a lower satisfaction score out of the 28 vehicles listed.   Also, what do you say about the fact that J.D. Powers results come from actual owners? You make the claim that Korean cars are just as good as Japanese cars. The number of defects per maker overall shows that is not the case.   Bluff, I mentioned J.D. Powers in reference to build quality, but I think it would be reasonable to think that low initial quality of things you can see or know will probably translate to long term reliability problems.   Bluff, some time back you made a statement and I asked for a source. The statement was that the new Leganza surpasses the Accord and Camry. Again, I ask how does it surpass the other two and what is your source? More recently you claimed that the Leganza has the highest top speed of the three, highest skidpad, and comparable braking. What is your source for this information. I have checked the listings for performance tests in Car and Driver, Motor Trend, and Consumer Reports. I have also checked the Daewoo website. I cannot find any substantiation for your claim. If this were true, you would think that Daewoo would tout it on their website.   Again, I think the Koreans are doing a lot better, but they are not as good as the Japanese. And when they get as good as the Japanese are today, well, the Japanese will have moved on higher up the road of quality.
#26 of 3820 One more thing, Bluff.... by majorthomecho Jun 02, 2001 (4:38 pm)
I thought you might be talking about the Magnus when you were talking about the Leganza so I went and read every post in that discussion. Yes, every 178 of them.   I found it really funny how insulting you were to supporters of Honda and Toyota cars.   I also found it funny that you made the same claims about the Leganza being better that you made here. Someone asked you for your source and strangely, you were silent. Will you remain silent or give me some proof to back up your statement?   Yes, the Leganza does get a better side impact rating for the front occupant than the Camry in the NHTSA tests. What you fail to mention is that the rating for the rear occupant is the same and the Camry does much better in the frontal collision test.   Also, you fail to mention the fact that the Leganza got the lowest rating from the Insurance Institute For Highway Safety. It got a poor overall. The Camry got the highest rating from the Institute. It got a good overall.   Nice try at trying to make people think the Leganza was as safe or safer than the Camry.
#27 of 3820 Ya'll crack me up. by badtoy Jun 02, 2001 (5:31 pm)
Let's take the bit about GM buying out the Japanese makes. I believe it went something like....   "The Japanese can't build good cars for cheap anymore. That's why they charge so much for cheap cars. Most of their profits went into real estate, not their factories. With GM buying Daewoo, you will only watch the Japanese cars disappear into the sunset, or be partially bought out by GM (the small part worth buying)."   Sorry, Mr. (or Ms) iluvmysephia....if anyone does the buying , Toyota will buy GM, not the othe way round. They're the only ones who have the cash to do so. And Toyota and Honda both continually improve their production systems -- it's called "kaizen." And Nissan is already beginning to be a force to be reckoned with again, now that Carlos Ghosn squared them away.   It continues, "For now GM has it's focus on Daewoo because of it's state of the art factories, all new. Daewoo currently owns the most productive plants in the world. They are setting next to the largest steel producer, have all the electronic expertise, top notch engineers and inexpensive highly skilled labor."   So why couldn't they turn a profit on their own? I have a friend who works at Daewoo headquarters here in Torrance, and his opinion of the way they do business would make you squirm.   Which isn't to say that I don't think they make some kinda nice cars -- I believe they do, as do Hyundai and Kia. But as has been said before, they only charge the prices they do and offer the warranties they do because that's the only way they can get people to buy them. For now, at least.   I hope for their and our sakes that their quality will continue to improve, because that gives us all more choices and forces the other automakers to do better themselves. But the Toyota Production System is still the envy of the manufacturing world, and has yet to be duplicated with the success of the original. Ford is preparing to go to that system in order to save its own hide. I don't believe they've benchmarked Daewoo.   Dream on, little Sephia, dream on....
#28 of 3820 majorthom with all the reading by fangio2 Jun 02, 2001 (7:34 pm)
and posting you do when do you get a chance to drive your Echo?You make some intersting observations,but tend to overkill.Just enjoy your car--lighten up.
#29 of 3820 Don't worry by majorthomecho Jun 03, 2001 (7:41 am)
Thanks for the concern Fangio, but I find plenty of time to drive my car. But you know, the same could be said about a lot of other people. : )
#30 of 3820 Toyota is the envy of all of the production world(!) by iluvmysephia1 Jun 03, 2001 (10:37 am)
What a joke! If Toyota is the envy of all of the production world why couldn't they make an attractive 4-door sedan? Kia's Sephia blows all Japanese models outta 'da water. No competition at all. No, badtoy, you're wrong. I could have sprung for a dull looking Civic or Corolla but they look so dull and ininspiring I couldn't even bear looking at them. I wasn't worried about quality because I know that all makers have quality control problems because people aren't perfect. A perfect car can't be made. I bought my Sephia before the Long-Haul warranty came out so I got a lesser warranty but it's not a selling factor anyway. Now after 2 years of driving my Kia I see through personal experience that quality is not and was never something to make me shake silly in my cowboy boots. You "all Japanese or nothing types" crack me up! People are that wimpy with their cash and listen to their biased relatives and friends that easily that straying away from Japanese models is like spitting on your traffic cop when he's handing you your speeding ticket? Kia and Hyundai have arrived and are smart enough to realize that the Japanese models don't have a grip on ALL Americans. It's nice to have a car manufacturer making quality cars at great prices with a great warranty. Bring on Sephia II boys!

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