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Low End Sedans (under $16k)

3820 messages,  Last post on Nov 24, 2008 at 9:45 AM

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What is this discussion about? Toyota ECHO, Chevrolet Aveo, Kia Rio, Nissan Sentra, Honda Fit, Hyundai Accent, Toyota Yaris, Kia Spectra, Suzuki Forenza, Sedan

#1782 of 3820 JD Power and our opinions by lawman1967 May 06, 2002 (6:17 am)
JD Power quality surveys are rather neutral things, hitting everyone soon after they buy a new car. The neutrality is probably best evidenced by the fact that Saturn, a maker of inexpensive cars, competes neck and neck for satisfaction with Lexus.   The other truth is that people tend to vehemently defend what they buy, considering a negative opinion about their personal choice of wheels as an insult to them personally.   The fact is, Korean cars are much better than they used to be, as evidenced by reviews here on Edmunds, in the magazines and yes, in JD Power. That said, they still have yet to equal the Americans, Europeans and Japanese, which is backed up by those same sources.   I lived in South Korea for two years (94-95) and have seen the progress of the Korean industry. I owned a Kia Avella (Ford Aspire) at that time, anddespite niggling quality issues, was pleased with it. That experience is typical of Korean cars. The engines, transmissions and other hard parts are fine. Simple, a tad less sophisticated (usually shown in poor MPG), and rougher around the edges (notchy transmissions, etc), but they work reliably.   Todays Korean cars are much better, especially the Hyundais. Cars like the Sonata, Elantra GT and Santa Fe show very high build quality, provide well-controlled rides and pleasant interiors. They still lack in sophisticated road manners, but are much better than they used to be.   Problem is, Europe, the US and Japan (usually) get better too. My 2002 Mitsubishi Galant is a huge improvement over my classmate's 1997 model (one generation). A colleague at work has a 2001 Nissan Sentra, which likewise is a huge improvement over the 1997 Sentra I just traded in last year (also a one generation difference). We look at how much better the current Elantra, Spectra, Sonata or whatever is than the previous one, but forget that with the possible exception of the Civic, the Japanese show equal or greater improvements as well.   Go drive a Mitsubishi Lancer. This car replaces the Mirage, and is so vastly superior to what it replaced that I even considered it instead of the midsize Galant - it is that good. Ditto the Focus, Golf, Corolla, etc.   The whole industry keeps moving, and playing catch up is so much harder against a moving target.
#1783 of 3820 Supreme and his Spectra by majorthomecho May 06, 2002 (10:09 am)
With those economy numbers and the percentage of town to country driving you gave, sounds like you need to do more country driving. ; ) But according to the EPA numbers, your Spectra is getting 1.5 miles to the gallon more than what they say it should given those percentages.   Supreme, do you mind giving us a rundown of what additional equipment you feel is necessary to equip an Echo like a Spectra? I went to Carsdirect.com and added the equipment I felt made up the difference and came up with the numbers I posted.   HOWEVER, I then went back and compared the two base vehicles (with no additional equipment) and made careful note of the differences between the two. I then went back to the optioning part of Carsdirect and optioned an Echo to be as close of a match of the Spectra as I possibly could using this new information. I came up with a third number.   So, again, I ask, what options did you add to the Echo?
#1784 of 3820 Negative opinions by majorthomecho May 06, 2002 (10:10 am)
I don't take negative opinions about my Echo personally. I know the styling leaves a lot of people turned off.
#1785 of 3820 American, Korean? by freddy_k May 06, 2002 (10:30 am)
Which is the worse of two evils? is a better question.  At the rate Korean cars are improving they will surpass American cars and catch up to Japanese in the near future.
#1786 of 3820 RE:Negative opinions by ziglifler May 06, 2002 (11:13 am)
"I don't take negative opinions about my Echo personally. I know the styling leaves a lot of people turned off"   I don't think anybody said anything about "YOUR" car . but your sure do blast anybody that says anything going against what you think of echo .   like lawman said "The other truth is that people tend to vehemently defend what they buy, considering a negative opinion about their personal choice of wheels as an insult to them personally."   thats why i said it just doens't matter.. people are very closed minded . they like what they like and even if someone makes a valid point they will trash it because they can't be wrong . we all buy the cars we like for whatever reason we like them . major tried to make the resale of the echo sound way better than the accent when his #'s showed they were only 6% different. and both sucked at about 50% . i claimed at 12 k you could get an echo and it was striped . i was mistaken , major made sure to point it out rather harshly i might add calling it a lie . but i was wrong and stated that . but the fact is the echo is a nice car if you want to get a high mpg car from toyota . but for what it cost and what you get i think there are better cars out there for the money ,if mpg isn't the most important part of the car .
#1787 of 3820 Initial quality by jimbeaumi May 06, 2002 (1:24 pm)
If Koreans are improving in both initial and long-term quality at a seemingly faster rate than American brands, and if a brand like Chrysler shows good initial results but deteriorates more quickly than other domestics, and if a quality gem like Civic is capable of slacking off, then the "lesser of two evils" becomes a matter of "how much more market share do the domestics lose?" And soon, how much do the Japanese lose?
#1788 of 3820 Major by lawman1967 May 06, 2002 (1:28 pm)
Actually my comments about negative opinions were directed at people who own cars liket he Spectra, which have important issues like quality criticized, styling is totally subjective.   That, and I like the Echo. My friend bought one of the first ones here, 4-doors, with power windows in front only, and powerlocks (aftermarket, I think). The central instruments are a bit weird to me, but I've never seen another vehicle that makes such excellent use of space.
#1789 of 3820 jimbeaumi and Freddy K by lawman1967 May 06, 2002 (1:39 pm)
Who says Koreans are catching the Japanese? I see tremendous improvement in Korean cars, but even more in Japanese cars. Actually, my vote for most improved in recent years would go to Volkswagen, but that's another issue.   I see cars like the new Corolla and Lancer on the low end, Camry and Altima (ugly interior, but oh sooooo fast) in the middle and just can't imagine Hyundai or Kia catching up anytime soon. The new Sonata is a nice car (rented one in Korea last summer), but it still doesn't meet the standards of the outgoing generation of Japanese midsize cars like my Galant or the old 2001 Camry. The current Accord is light-years beyond the Kia Optima and Hyundai Sonata, and a new one is due out in a few months that will make the old one look dated.   The Elantra is much better than any previous Elantra, but the 96-2000 Civic, and even the 93-97 Corolla are nicer, more solid cars, while the new Corolla has moved the class up another notch.   Even down another notch where the Accent and Echo live, the Korean entries, while much nicer than their predecessors, aren't up to the quality and engineering standards of the Echo.   What isn't mentioned here is that my comparisons are by size class, rather than price class. The Korean brands continue to compete by pricing their cars as though they were one bracket lower. The Sonata isn't as nice as the Camry, but is compelling agains the Corolla. The Elantra can't match the Corolla, but is compelling against the Echo, while the Accent undercuts the Echo by a few grand, where Toyota lakcs an entry.   Koreans give you more for your dollar in terms of quantity, but at a lower quality level. What never fails however, is that you tend to get what you pay for.
#1790 of 3820 Daimler, Mitsubishi, Hyundai Join in Engine Development by protegextwo May 06, 2002 (6:45 pm)
"The three companies will hold equal stakes in the joint venture, to be called 'Global Engine Alliance" -Road and Track http://www.roadandtrack.com/news/dai/PrintArticle.asp?ArticleID=43
#1791 of 3820 Re Joint Venture by backy May 06, 2002 (7:28 pm)
Now that's interesting! Another interesting part of the announcement--and a bit surprising to me, given that DaimlerChrysler and Mitsubishi are no slouches in engine design:   "... Hyundai will lead the development and engineering... ".   So we have this German/American car company and this Japanese car company in a joint venture with a Korean company, and the Korean company is taking the lead in development and engineering?? Obviously the initial quality of these engines will be the worst in the industry.

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