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Best Hot Hatch - SVT, Civic Si, GTI, RSX, Mini, Beetle...

894 messages,  Last post on Nov 25, 2009 at 11:12 PM

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What is this discussion about? Acura RSX, Honda Civic, MINI Cooper, Volkswagen New Beetle, Ford Focus, Volkswagen GTI, Coupe, Hatchback

#862 of 894 huntzinger by muffin_man Jul 08, 2004 (4:06 pm)
For example, Resistance Mash Seam Welding (pioneered by VAG) adds some weight and doesn't seem to make a difference on NHSTA crash tests, because its body-strengthening characteristics contribute to crashworthiness performance in the energy realm above the NHSTA test standard, so there is no NHSTA test data for us to compare.   Is there any data for us to compare? I am not familiar with this information, so I can't criticize it, but is there any way to measure the difference. Perhaps more importantly, does anyone have a crash test that would reflect the difference? I would think that if VW felt its design was far above the competition to do this sort of design innovation, it would advertise it somehow.   So does that make it a good thing or not? Since it has now spread out of Europe to Japan (its been adopted by Mitzu and Subaru), apparently its catching on for _some_ reason.   I would love to learn more about this. Any links?   When we get into 'intangible' elements, we often have to fly by the seat of our pants to try to weigh factors that look like they're probably important, but there's no simple comparative data to pick A over B.   The specific relevance here was that the Miata was found to have had its front end built "too soft", which resulted in excellent crash test scores, but poor real world performance.   And yet, the Miata has among the lowest death/accident rates of any vehicle.   Now take these two elements together: would you rather buy a car from a company who is choosing to exceed the government-mandated safety requirements, or from a company who's willing to make the vehicle less safe in real life just to pass a semi-contrived test?   In principle, I agree with you. But when I choose to buy a 2400 pound car with no top, I am already making choices. If this special technique added 300 pounds to the Miata, it would ruin the car. I wouldn't want a Miata of that weight. That makes the choice more complicated.   YMMV, but I prefer to give my money to the manufacturer who's trying his best to make sure that I'll live to buy another one of his cars in the future, and not the guy who's appears to be angling to make his car as cheap as possible.   While I've heard of the Miata incident, I don't know enough about it to say that I think Mazda is making their car as cheap as possible. I think that the Miata is as safe as practical for the size and weight that it is.   This medium is limiting on the ability to express ourselves...plus we aren't doing this conversation in the appropriate environment (over a beer   Edmunds should start having user parties, that would be fun.   FWIW, I've been told that there's also a Septigenarian clubmember who's an original owner of a ~1970 2.0L 914 who routinely embarasses "the big boys" in the infield turns at Pocono Racetrack.   I love the 914. When I have a garage again, and some spare time, I would love to build one up for the track.   Which reminds me: Subaru & Mitzu were recently written up in AutoWeek for encouraging SCCA/Autocrossing while simultaneously having warranty fine print that says that this is a customer use that will invalidate your warranty.   I read about that. I actually heard that Mitsubishi was attending track events and taking down license plates of participating cars - then voiding their warrantees. Scary.   My personal threshhold starts at $20, for that's where those aftermarket exhaust tips start. There's a lot of bolt-on snake oil junk that frequently offer really nasty trade-off's. The days when the automaker's engineers left lots of room for improvement are generally gone: the "easy horsepower" days where you could get +10% horsepower simply by bolting on an aftermarket exhaust system are no longer. The most popular power mod today is to chip the car, although even a lot of this has gone away, leaving only the non-normally aspirated engines as being the market target, such as the VW 1.8t The $64,000 question here is if there really was "Free Power" available to the manufacturer with no downside trade-offs of reduced long term reliability, don't you think that they would have programmed the chip that way themselves? To say yes is to insult those professionals. YMMV, but this is why I would never chip a vehicle that's to be my daily driver.   I agree with the chip. But as far as the rest goes, not so much. An air intake can significantly increase engine noise, as can a header and exhaust. I don't feel that these elements in any way reduce reliability, but they do increase power, and noise. I can see why the factory wouldn't include them, my car has an annoying drone on the freeway.   The same goes for various handling elements - they can certainly improve the drive. Would I spent $6000 on a J-spec type-R engine for my Si? No.   YMMV. The problem was that by venturing outside of their area of expertise, they displayed a lack of good judgement. Its also not the first time they've done this: this company is using the underhanded tactic of "Quality Control" telephone soliciations to current subscribers in order to invite them to extend their subscriptions.   Eh, those things don't bug me. The editors go to Europe, they may have had different experiences. The marketing and the writing are not necessarily done by the same departments. Not that I would take any one source's reporting as gospel, but they seemed to represent the concensus in this case.   awful - or HH's old '85 Tempo.   Yes, that truely was an awful car that the woman who became my wife chose to buy.   ...and what makes it even more painful is that she paid full sticker.
#863 of 894 GTI with HIDs by trimix Jul 09, 2004 (10:16 pm)
Was just surfing on the VW UK website. Most of their cars -- Golf, Bora, and some other lower end models -- all have HIDs as an optional. When are we gonna learn to do the same? Replies to this message: blueiedgod (Jul 12, 2004 3:22 am)
#864 of 894 Re: GTI with HIDs [trimix] by blueiedgod Jul 12, 2004 (3:22 am)
Replying to: trimix (Jul 09, 2004 10:16 pm) Most of HIDs are just bling bling. Although they offer less current draw over conventional filament bulbs and produce whiter light. An improperly designed reflector (read, putting HIDs in a non-HID headlight assembly) will result in less light on the ground and more light in oncoming traffic eyes.
#865 of 894 MM by huntzinger Jul 12, 2004 (6:06 am)
For example, Resistance Mash Seam Welding...   Is there any data for us to compare?   Not that I'm immediately aware of. I first heard about it from the ASME professional journal Mechanical Engineering probably 5+ years ago. From what I recall, it was a less costly way to make a structural element that would absorb both more energy and do so in a more linear fashion, which improves survivability by reducing the peak acceleration force.   And yet, the Miata has among the lowest death/accident rates of any vehicle.   We have to be really careful when using the NHSTA accident statistics, because the vehicle and driver are intimately entwined within the data and generally inseparable.   It is for this reason that we find station wagons appearing safer than their sedan counterparts, despite their designs generally being identical to their sedan counterparts from the B column forward. BYOGOS (Bring Your Own Grain Of Salt   My personal threshhold starts at $20, for that's where those aftermarket exhaust tips start. There's a lot of bolt-on snake oil junk...   I agree with the chip. But as far as the rest goes, not so much. An air intake can significantly increase engine noise, as can a header and exhaust. I don't feel that these elements in any way reduce reliability, but they do increase power, and noise. I can see why the factory wouldn't include them, my car has an annoying drone on the freeway.   There's always going to be trade-offs. For example with exhausts, manufacturers who want to sell their product in Europe have to pass the Switzerland sound regulations, so that will limit what they can legally do in trading off backpressure for noise.   Even so, my point here was more that in the past this might have been an area where an enthusiast could refit and get a +10% gain, but because the manufacturers are paying more attention to this design area (for various reasons), today, we may only get perhaps +5%. Hence, my less "easy" horsepower comment.   And we also need to make sure that the "tests" are valid. For example, K&N air filters ran into an embarrassing problem a few years ago when it was found that their aftermarket systems actually reduced horsepower on the street - - it turns out that Dyno testing of the day was done with a fan over the hood, and didn't let the air flow through the vehicle's radiator where it got preheated (IIRC, K&N compensated with a ducting kit). Even so, there's the factor that manufacturers are also trying to get more power out of the same engine blocks, so supply-side flow restrictions are also being worked on, so there's less "easy" power to be gained through such efforts. And it is this sum of work by the manufacturers on the front end and back that is part of the reason why chipping has become such a popular power enhancement technique today: it offers more HP per dollar invested.   -hh
#866 of 894 huntzinger by muffin_man Jul 12, 2004 (2:55 pm)
For example, Resistance Mash Seam Welding... Is there any data for us to compare?   Not that I'm immediately aware of. I first heard about it from the ASME professional journal Mechanical Engineering probably 5+ years ago. From what I recall, it was a less costly way to make a structural element that would absorb both more energy and do so in a more linear fashion, which improves survivability by reducing the peak acceleration force.   http://www.a-sp.org/database/custom/twbmanual/printsection.asp?hi- d=9   Not too much info on google, but the above is interesting.   Even so, my point here was more that in the past this might have been an area where an enthusiast could refit and get a +10% gain, but because the manufacturers are paying more attention to this design area (for various reasons), today, we may only get perhaps +5%. Hence, my less "easy" horsepower comment.   I agree, with some reservations. Many cars can still get an easy 10% gain from bolt ons - but probably less than before. I can't decide on a generalization right now.
#867 of 894 Talk to the Press by Sylvia STAFF Jul 12, 2004 (6:12 pm)
A newspaper reporter is hoping to interview a recent buyer who looked at a Honda but then opted for another make. Please send your brief comments about your decision along with your daytime contact info to jfallonedmunds.com no later than Friday, July 16, 2004.   Thanks, Jeannine Fallon PR Director Edmunds.com
#868 of 894 Hottest Hatch, has to be VW Golf R32 by db6 Aug 25, 2004 (6:35 pm)
I drove one for a day,un-real performance,I was about to buy it when my girlfriend blocked it.Guess she didnt see a $31000 Rabbit in the same way I did. I tell you what tho, it has the best exhaust note of any car I,ve driven,it really is a great car,if you get a chance try one, tell me if i,m wrong.
#869 of 894 THE BEST DECISION.... by colorado1974 Oct 10, 2004 (7:32 pm)
IS TO STAY AWAY FROM ANY VW CAR!   OF THE FIRST 45 DAYS MY WIFES VW BEETLE HAS BEEN IN THE SHOP FOR 34 OF THEM.   READ ALL OF THE PROBLEMS EVERYWHERE ONLINE AND STAY AWAY FROM VW! Replies to this message: Sylvia (Oct 11, 2004 5:40 am) fish8 (Oct 18, 2004 11:29 am)
#870 of 894 Re: THE BEST DECISION.... [colorado1974] by Sylvia STAFF Oct 11, 2004 (5:40 am)
Replying to: colorado1974 (Oct 10, 2004 7:32 pm) Please do not post in ALL CAPS - there is no need to yell.
#871 of 894 by billmchale Oct 11, 2004 (6:23 am)
Well while it is true that VW is having some problems of late, I think the truely awful cars, the real horror stories are the exception. Online posts are great, but they tend to be self selecting; people with extreme experiences tend to post far more often than those who have had few if any problems.   Case in point, I have a 1998 VW Jetta that I have put 125,000 miles on. I did have a leaky sunroof when I got the car, but that was fixed under warrenty (no big deal), and other than that I never had an issue with the car until I hit 115,000 miles when both the battery and the starter motor both died within about 3 weeks of each other. Since they were replaced the car continues to soldier on as dependable as ever. By the time my last car had hit 120,000 mile I was taking it into the shop every other month to have something fixed (At which point I made the decision to replace it).   Of course at 125,000 miles I am starting to get a little nervous, cause there are an awful lot of original items on that car that I expect to start wearing out soon like the alternator, clutch...   -- Bill

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