Last post on Nov 12, 2008 at 7:09 PM
You are in the Hatchbacks
What is this discussion about?
Acura RSX, Honda Civic, MINI Cooper, Volkswagen New Beetle, Ford Focus, Volkswagen GTI, Coupe, Hatchback
#845 of 894 Re: hh [muffin_man #844]
Jul 06, 2004 (6:32 am)
The GTI handling is poor for this segment, there is no two ways about it. It is a great cross country car.
So why can't "this segment" include a good cross-country car?
It would appear that your personal checklist is for a "kidney bruiser", not a "highway cruiser", and you’ve assumed that your preferences must fit us all. Please excuse me if I don’t want to live day-to-day with a hard suspension that has invariably has a high NVH and increased driver fatigue, just for the 1% of the year that I might actually appreciate having it out on a track.
Yes, this is a trade-off, and I reserve the right to make my own trades because its my money being spent.
So why are you defending the GTI? Is it the paradigm of these inputs? I'm not claiming the M3 is soft, I'm claiming the GTI is soft. And everyone knows it!
A 'soft' suspension is not the same as 'soft' steering. True, they do tend to be found together, but not always. If you want the one and not the other, this is a good thing.
And you are claiming to be objective?
I have a personal bias. If I could firmly fix down those attributes which I've called 'intangibles', then it would be merely a personal preference.
Objectively, we have to accept the fact that we all have personal biases that influence our choices. It is intellectual dishonesty when one claims to be objective when they really are not.
End of Part I.
#846 of 894 Re: hh [muffin_man #844]
Jul 06, 2004 (6:43 am)
[wish list cars]
I assume that you know that one of your three cars was the subject of very pointed criticism a few years ago, specifically because its design had been biased to post “better numbers” on a Government crash safety tests at the expense of Real-Life crashworthiness performance.
YMMV, but such factors influence my holistic product decisions, regardless of how much I might like how the car physically drives.
Ah...911 owner. Why am I bothering?
Because you’re guilty of leaping to your personally biased conclusions.
Here, it is what kind of car someone drives influences your opinion as to what you think of their opinions. The hypocritical irony is your later claim of being objective. Pot, meet Kettle.
In case you didn't know, your car has a substantially different suspension setup than the GTI, but you would rather take cheap shots at me than talk about it.
So let’s talk about it instead of making cheap shots:
There’s only three basic types of automotive suspension spring designs: helical, torsional and orthoginal leaf. Both the VW & 911 designs are torsional types, so they're not substantially different as you have claimed.
My intended point wasn't to show that you're factually wrong, but to focus on your comment of how it is an “archaic” design. While perhaps there are better mousetraps that are important for a very small fraction of drivers, the reality is that they don’t make the driver behind the wheel any better, because in today’s cars, the weakest link is not the hardware, but the driver.
In other words, you've failed the "so what?" test.
A good example of the "so what?" test is the fawning worship over Honda’s electrically driven power steering pump.
Yeah, its an interesting technology, but its obvious that Honda didn't explicitly develop that product so as to shave a few pounds and to conserve one Horsepower in their SI: if that was their sole intent, they could have put manual steering back onto the Civic.
No, the reality here is that an electric power steering pump is a necessary enabling technology for Hybrids: they would have used this motor even if it weighed more and sucked more engine power.
Insofar as why it ended up in the SI, that's a reality of manufacturing: broadening its production base reduces its manufacturing costs.
Overall, if you're following the philosophy that performance truly come before creature comforts, you've completely missed what is the "biggest bang for the buck" performance modification gain to be had on the Civic SI: tear out its A/C system.
If you want your eyes opened, go attend some track events and watch all of the "Gold Chainers" (some in heavily modified Hondas) get their fannies handed to them by "Old Guys in Inferior Cars".
FYI, this past May’s NNJR PCA’s autocross Fastest Time of the Day for Stock vehicles was won by a guy in a 1976 911S. What an embarassment to all of the guys in "superior technology" Boxster S and 996 Turbo's with twice the horsepower, bettter brakes and better power:weight ratio's that he spanked. Go figure.
What this really means is that anyone looking at dumping a bunch of aftermarket mod’s into their vehicle had better really think twice about it, and seriously consider a good Driver Training class instead.
quote from Sportcompactcarweb
Sorry, but I don't really care what they have to say, because they're wrong. Here's but one example of a lie:
So basically, you don't care about what anyone has to say that you disagree with. Totally objective.
Incorrect conclusion: when I find that someone claims that 2+2=5, they can no longer be trusted with any of their claims.
Well, I'm sure that a 911 owner like yourself is much more experienced in all things automotive. Whether arriving at the country club, or shopping at a high end supermarket, there really is no substitute for the Porsche 911.
Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you want, which includes being humbled by a guy in an obviously "lesser car" beating your lap times.
What I've learned is that personal inadequacies are not compensated for by buying "more" car.
Jul 06, 2004 (7:05 am)
So I had no idea that my original post would cause so much heated discussion, but it has been educational, so I'm glad for it. So that you know, I've learned a few things in reading all these posts.
1. You people are MUCH smarter about cars than I am. Period.
2. I'm still so very happy with my purchase of the 24K GTI VR6, and here's why, in a nutshell:
- My previous car was an arguably better handler, the Protege5. I took corners better; it also left me regretting every little bump in the road. The VR6 allows me to do all the passing I want in my not-so-curved-path commute to and from work, but now I don't hate the road I'm driving on near as much. I don't "race", per se (though I will take a guy off the line from time to time at a light, whether he realizes it or not).
- When I sit inside my VR6, it feels like I'm sitting amidst much more luxury for 24K than the SI offers at 14-19K (depending on your negotiating skills; I've already admitted that mine are less than ideal). This is an intangible, for sure, as most folks' idea of luxury is very subjective. But I wanted to spend my money to get the luxury I wanted, and I've got that. Furthermore, the inside of the '04 Si is more or less the inside of my wife's previous car, the '02 Civic LX. A reliable commuter, no doubt. Heck, it was a well put-together interior, too. But there was nothing luxury about it.
- While we're talking about money: I got a new job last year, one that pays a ton more than my previous. So I figured I'd get a car that combined luxury and performance with a (relatively) reasonable pricetag. My checklist for this car was based primarily on making my daily commute fun and comfortable. Mileage: not so much. Does the VR6 satisfy my checklist? Absolutely. Will it be the best choice for everyone? Not at all. But I have a darn good car, all things considered, that I didn't have to modify one bit out of the showroom. Not one bit. And If I feel like racing some guy at the nearest stoplight after I finish writing this, chances are, I'm going to smoke him. If I then feel like getting on the highway and heading off to work, chances are I'm going to enjoy that ride more than he enjoys his. That makes me very happy. And THAT'S what I was looking for when I bought my GTI VR6. Enjoy.
-PS, my VR6 is a 6-speed manual. Thank God.
#848 of 894 GTI Airbags
Jul 06, 2004 (10:41 am)
Has anyone had problems with the passenger side airbags deploying when hitting a pothole?
#849 of 894 Re: GTI Airbags [lagti #848]
Jul 06, 2004 (11:24 am)
I haven't, and I'm commuting in and around metro DC, which is notoriously pot-holey. That sounds like a definite trip to the dealer, though.
#850 of 894 Re: To sum up... [mutarjim #847]
Jul 06, 2004 (9:24 pm)
hey mutarjim, how long have you had your GTI again?
#851 of 894 Re: To sum up... [trimix #850]
Jul 07, 2004 (2:20 pm)
I've had it for a little over a month now. My wife has had her 1.8T for 5 days more than that. We're both still real happy, though it's admittedly very much in the Honeymoon phase still (for the cars, not our marriage).
#852 of 894 Re: To sum up... [mutarjim]
Jul 07, 2004 (9:02 pm)
Hahaha sounds good M. Keep us abreast of any developments (both good and bad!)
#853 of 894 Re: To sum up... [mutarjim #847]
Jul 08, 2004 (6:15 am)
That is a good thing that you found your "automotive half"
One comment I did not like though.
Furthermore, the inside of the '04 Si is more or less the inside of my wife's previous car, the '02 Civic LX.
It is not anywhere near the same interior in the Si when compared to LX or EX. From the seats and shifter to the cushioned door handle/armrests and cup holder on the left side to allow shifting. It is a completely different Civic. It traces its roots back to Nurburgring development. It is not perfect, either. In fact the Si was developed in Germany, and it shows. I had the window regulators replaced under warranty in the first 6 months, it was using oil until 10,000 miles, and it drives pretty much like a VW (not VR6)
#854 of 894 Re: To sum up... [mutarjim]
Jul 08, 2004 (8:07 am)
2. I'm still so very happy with my purchase...
Bottom line up front, that's really the only thing that matters.
- My previous car was an arguably better handler...it also left me regretting every little bump in the road.
A firm ride isn't bad to live with when its a 20 minute commute, but it becomes another beast entirely when a 300 mile drive on rough and/or potholed roads is considered, and a different trade-off is likely to ensue.
Similarly, its also not unreasonable to be willing to trade-off some rear suspension characteristics for handling when it improves the vehicle's cargo-carrying utility (via better rear dimensions) in hatchback designs.
...it feels like I'm sitting amidst much more luxury...the inside of the '04 Si is more or less the inside of my wife's previous car, the '02 Civic LX.
Styling cues are very much subject to personal taste preferences. OTOH, it is also quite true that an extra few bucks invested in different ("better") materials often goes a long ways in making a substantial difference in appearance and perception.
While we're talking about money...
Probably best not to For many of us, a vehicle is much more than merely basic transporation, but a combination of lifestyle choice, personal preferences, a social statement and so forth.
If we're going to strictly look at the money question, then we should all be driving the cheapest Kia that we can find, and we would never lease vehicles either.
The reality is that automobiles are one of the worst financial investments you can make, and yet since we all "gotta have one" anyway, one of the best things you can do for yourself financially is to get ahead of the power curve when it comes to buying your vehciles. There's a lot of different strategies that could be discussed, and although "Hatchback" does mean that we're recognizing a healthy dose of practicality in our product selections, its not unique to hatchbacks, either.