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Best Hot Hatch - SVT, Civic Si, GTI, RSX, Mini, Beetle...

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What is this discussion about? Acura RSX, Honda Civic, MINI Cooper, Volkswagen New Beetle, Ford Focus, Volkswagen GTI, Coupe, Hatchback

#841 of 894 Si vs GTI by blueiedgod Jul 03, 2004 (6:26 am)
Well for starters, I paid $14,500 for my 2002 Civic Si with 8 (eight) miles on the odometer. You paid $24K for the GTI VR6.   Seats: Si comes with un-labeled Recaro's, and like a true sports car that is designed to hold the driver in place they are suede. Leather gets too slippery in the corners, as I am sure you are aware of. I have owned cars with leather seats, and I have to say the only thing stopping me from getting TSX is the leather seats.   Steering: The Si uses a servo motor to assis steering rather than archaic power steering pump and hydraulic rack. This results in precise steering at any speed as the assist is varies with speed. Did I mention that electric PS does not place extra load on the engine? It is not electro-hydraulic that "innovative" cars use, it is purely electric.   Suspension: I believe GTI still uses torsion beam rear suspension from the 1982 Rabbit design. Although this iteration of Si is a little bit dummyfied by the MacPherson in the front, rather than the Honda typical double wishbone, the rear is still double wishbone. This allows the car with significantly less HP than GTI VR6 power though corners with higher speeds without lifting the inside rear wheel, and losing contact with the pavement.   Engine: In stock form GTI VR6 is more powerful than Si in stock form. But, since I saved $10K on the purchase price, I can put that money back into the car, if I wanted to. Like said before, there are update options from turbo/supercharging, nitrous, swapping block (2.5 liter) with a more powerful TSX, and RSX type S head (true VTEC), or a combination of forced induction and bigger engine. Honda has always built engines sturdier than the output would have required them to be. A stock bottom end of a Honda engine can safely withstand 400 hp before requiring a stronger crank and mains.   Psychology: I understand that you want to justify spending $24,000 on a car that perfoms like a $15,000 Civic, and it is ok with me.   People spend tons of money on their Mustangs only to make them perform like a stock Corvette. They don't realize that a stock corvette can be had for under $40K at the dealer with all the rebates and incentives, while a mustang that perfoms like a corvette is about $60K.   Question: Let me ask you this, is your GTI VR6 manual or auto?
#842 of 894 quick point by seminole_kev Jul 03, 2004 (9:25 am)
"Did I mention that electric PS does not place extra load on the engine?"   Actually it does. Where do you think the electricity is generated from to drive it? Replies to this message: blueiedgod (Jul 03, 2004 12:38 pm)
#843 of 894 Re: quick point [seminole_kev #842] by blueiedgod Jul 03, 2004 (12:38 pm)
Replying to: seminole_kev (Jul 03, 2004 9:25 am) The Si has alternator that automatically disconnects from the battery once it is fully charged and does not engage until the battery is somewhere around 80% of capacity. It is not a mechanical engeagemnt, like A/c pump, but rather electronic, where the alternator is simply taken out of the circuit. No load on alternator means no load on the engine.
#844 of 894 hh by muffin_man Jul 04, 2004 (11:01 am)
If you haven't noticed, pretty much all cars are laden down pretty heavily: my VW Sirocco weighed 2300lbs, but I wouldn't want to have an accident in it...by today's standards, its a thin tin can.   300 pounds is 300 pounds. The Si is 300 pounds closer to the Sirocco than the GTI is.   Yes, there have been a ton of reviews that accuse the GTI of being a "pig", and I also agree that its front end does plow with the weight distribution of the VR6 configuration. However, neither gross weight nor brakes had anything to do with what I was talking about when I was referring to steering rates and braking rates: perhaps you actually enjoy overboosted and numb steering and brakes that lock up as soon as you touch them, but I do not. YMMV.   I agree, my car does not have the steering feel of a BMW. But neither does the GTI. My steering is not numb, and my brakes don't lock up as soon as I touch them. The GTI handling is poor for this segment, there is no two ways about it. It is a great cross country car.   That car was a 1990 Audi 80, which had replaced a 1985 Ford Tempo.   And she liked the Audi better than the Tempo? I find that hard to believe!   And to reiterate what I'm specifically talking about here are things like overboosted power brakes and steering systems with deadspots that are frustratingly huge. YMMV, but I prefer a total holistic setup that is more linear on its brakes than what is typical on most GM, Ford, Toyota & Honda products today, as well as a directional control system where I can actually give it 1/4" inputs that the vehicle will accept as inputs instead of driver noise and ignore.   So why are you defending the GTI? Is it the paradigm of these inputs? I'm not claiming the M3 is soft, I'm claiming the GTI is soft. And everyone knows it!   I'm not going to claim that the Si is the best car in the world... Yes you are. We all have our biases.   Give me a Miata or an Mr-2. Dream car would be the Elise.   I have to laugh because the intangibles you speak of are hardly represented in the GTI. If it is so great, why advise me to go try a BMW?   Because its petty subtle and is easy for someone who has not experienced it to overlook it. Since BMW is even more extreme in this regards, it should be more noticable to an objective individual who is sincerely looking to find for themselves what I'm talking about.   And you are claiming to be objective? Your posts are bordering on offensive.   Gosh, my 911 has leather seats that people complain about...and a rear torsion beam suspension. But sorry, it can't qualify as a real sports car on M&M's checklist.   Ah...911 owner. Why am I bothering? In case you didn't know, your car has a substantially different suspension setup than the GTI, but you would rather take cheap shots at me than talk about it.   quote from Sportcompactcarweb Sorry, but I don't really care what they have to say, because they're wrong. Here's but one example of a lie:   So basically, you don't care about what anyone has to say that you disagree with. Totally objective.   I've done over 1000km on German roads within the past twelve months alone, and IMNSHO, the lane discipline remains quite excellent. If this writer has any grief, its not near the Wolfsburg factory, or probably any other 'Bahn in the west. Perhaps he was thinking of Italy's Autostrada?   Well, I'm sure that a 911 owner like yourself is much more experienced in all things automotive. Whether arriving at the country club, or shopping at a high end supermarket, there really is no substitute for the Porsche 911.   Uh, oh, my objectivity is showing! Replies to this message: huntzinger (Jul 06, 2004 5:32 am) huntzinger (Jul 06, 2004 5:43 am)
#845 of 894 Re: hh [muffin_man #844] by huntzinger Jul 06, 2004 (5:32 am)
Replying to: muffin_man (Jul 04, 2004 11:01 am) The GTI handling is poor for this segment, there is no two ways about it. It is a great cross country car.   So why can't "this segment" include a good cross-country car?   It would appear that your personal checklist is for a "kidney bruiser", not a "highway cruiser", and you’ve assumed that your preferences must fit us all. Please excuse me if I don’t want to live day-to-day with a hard suspension that has invariably has a high NVH and increased driver fatigue, just for the 1% of the year that I might actually appreciate having it out on a track.   Yes, this is a trade-off, and I reserve the right to make my own trades because its my money being spent.   So why are you defending the GTI? Is it the paradigm of these inputs? I'm not claiming the M3 is soft, I'm claiming the GTI is soft. And everyone knows it!   A 'soft' suspension is not the same as 'soft' steering. True, they do tend to be found together, but not always. If you want the one and not the other, this is a good thing.     And you are claiming to be objective?   I have a personal bias. If I could firmly fix down those attributes which I've called 'intangibles', then it would be merely a personal preference.   Objectively, we have to accept the fact that we all have personal biases that influence our choices. It is intellectual dishonesty when one claims to be objective when they really are not.   End of Part I.   -hh
#846 of 894 Re: hh [muffin_man #844] by huntzinger Jul 06, 2004 (5:43 am)
Replying to: muffin_man (Jul 04, 2004 11:01 am) [wish list cars]   I assume that you know that one of your three cars was the subject of very pointed criticism a few years ago, specifically because its design had been biased to post “better numbers” on a Government crash safety tests at the expense of Real-Life crashworthiness performance.   YMMV, but such factors influence my holistic product decisions, regardless of how much I might like how the car physically drives.   Ah...911 owner. Why am I bothering?   Because you’re guilty of leaping to your personally biased conclusions.   Here, it is what kind of car someone drives influences your opinion as to what you think of their opinions. The hypocritical irony is your later claim of being objective. Pot, meet Kettle.   In case you didn't know, your car has a substantially different suspension setup than the GTI, but you would rather take cheap shots at me than talk about it.   So let’s talk about it instead of making cheap shots:   There’s only three basic types of automotive suspension spring designs: helical, torsional and orthoginal leaf. Both the VW & 911 designs are torsional types, so they're not substantially different as you have claimed.   My intended point wasn't to show that you're factually wrong, but to focus on your comment of how it is an “archaic” design. While perhaps there are better mousetraps that are important for a very small fraction of drivers, the reality is that they don’t make the driver behind the wheel any better, because in today’s cars, the weakest link is not the hardware, but the driver.   In other words, you've failed the "so what?" test.   A good example of the "so what?" test is the fawning worship over Honda’s electrically driven power steering pump.   Yeah, its an interesting technology, but its obvious that Honda didn't explicitly develop that product so as to shave a few pounds and to conserve one Horsepower in their SI: if that was their sole intent, they could have put manual steering back onto the Civic.   No, the reality here is that an electric power steering pump is a necessary enabling technology for Hybrids: they would have used this motor even if it weighed more and sucked more engine power.   Insofar as why it ended up in the SI, that's a reality of manufacturing: broadening its production base reduces its manufacturing costs.   Overall, if you're following the philosophy that performance truly come before creature comforts, you've completely missed what is the "biggest bang for the buck" performance modification gain to be had on the Civic SI: tear out its A/C system.   If you want your eyes opened, go attend some track events and watch all of the "Gold Chainers" (some in heavily modified Hondas) get their fannies handed to them by "Old Guys in Inferior Cars".   FYI, this past May’s NNJR PCA’s autocross Fastest Time of the Day for Stock vehicles was won by a guy in a 1976 911S. What an embarassment to all of the guys in "superior technology" Boxster S and 996 Turbo's with twice the horsepower, bettter brakes and better power:weight ratio's that he spanked. Go figure.   What this really means is that anyone looking at dumping a bunch of aftermarket mod’s into their vehicle had better really think twice about it, and seriously consider a good Driver Training class instead.    - -   quote from Sportcompactcarweb Sorry, but I don't really care what they have to say, because they're wrong. Here's but one example of a lie:   So basically, you don't care about what anyone has to say that you disagree with. Totally objective.   Incorrect conclusion: when I find that someone claims that 2+2=5, they can no longer be trusted with any of their claims.   Well, I'm sure that a 911 owner like yourself is much more experienced in all things automotive. Whether arriving at the country club, or shopping at a high end supermarket, there really is no substitute for the Porsche 911.   Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you want, which includes being humbled by a guy in an obviously "lesser car" beating your lap times.   What I've learned is that personal inadequacies are not compensated for by buying "more" car.   -hh
#847 of 894 To sum up... by mutarjim Jul 06, 2004 (6:05 am)
So I had no idea that my original post would cause so much heated discussion, but it has been educational, so I'm glad for it. So that you know, I've learned a few things in reading all these posts.   1. You people are MUCH smarter about cars than I am. Period.   2. I'm still so very happy with my purchase of the 24K GTI VR6, and here's why, in a nutshell:   - My previous car was an arguably better handler, the Protege5. I took corners better; it also left me regretting every little bump in the road. The VR6 allows me to do all the passing I want in my not-so-curved-path commute to and from work, but now I don't hate the road I'm driving on near as much. I don't "race", per se (though I will take a guy off the line from time to time at a light, whether he realizes it or not).   - When I sit inside my VR6, it feels like I'm sitting amidst much more luxury for 24K than the SI offers at 14-19K (depending on your negotiating skills; I've already admitted that mine are less than ideal). This is an intangible, for sure, as most folks' idea of luxury is very subjective. But I wanted to spend my money to get the luxury I wanted, and I've got that. Furthermore, the inside of the '04 Si is more or less the inside of my wife's previous car, the '02 Civic LX. A reliable commuter, no doubt. Heck, it was a well put-together interior, too. But there was nothing luxury about it.   - While we're talking about money: I got a new job last year, one that pays a ton more than my previous. So I figured I'd get a car that combined luxury and performance with a (relatively) reasonable pricetag. My checklist for this car was based primarily on making my daily commute fun and comfortable. Mileage: not so much. Does the VR6 satisfy my checklist? Absolutely. Will it be the best choice for everyone? Not at all. But I have a darn good car, all things considered, that I didn't have to modify one bit out of the showroom. Not one bit. And If I feel like racing some guy at the nearest stoplight after I finish writing this, chances are, I'm going to smoke him. If I then feel like getting on the highway and heading off to work, chances are I'm going to enjoy that ride more than he enjoys his. That makes me very happy. And THAT'S what I was looking for when I bought my GTI VR6. Enjoy.   -PS, my VR6 is a 6-speed manual. Thank God. Replies to this message: trimix (Jul 06, 2004 8:24 pm) mutarjim (Jul 07, 2004 1:20 pm) trimix (Jul 07, 2004 8:02 pm) blueiedgod (Jul 08, 2004 5:15 am) huntzinger (Jul 08, 2004 7:07 am)
#848 of 894 GTI Airbags by lagti Jul 06, 2004 (9:41 am)
Has anyone had problems with the passenger side airbags deploying when hitting a pothole? Replies to this message: mutarjim (Jul 06, 2004 10:24 am)
#849 of 894 Re: GTI Airbags [lagti #848] by mutarjim Jul 06, 2004 (10:24 am)
Replying to: lagti (Jul 06, 2004 9:41 am) I haven't, and I'm commuting in and around metro DC, which is notoriously pot-holey. That sounds like a definite trip to the dealer, though.
#850 of 894 Re: To sum up... [mutarjim #847] by trimix Jul 06, 2004 (8:24 pm)
Replying to: mutarjim (Jul 06, 2004 6:05 am) hey mutarjim, how long have you had your GTI again? Replies to this message: mutarjim (Jul 07, 2004 1:20 pm) trimix (Jul 07, 2004 8:02 pm)

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