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Best Hot Hatch - SVT, Civic Si, GTI, RSX, Mini, Beetle...

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What is this discussion about? Acura RSX, Honda Civic, MINI Cooper, Volkswagen New Beetle, Ford Focus, Volkswagen GTI, Coupe, Hatchback

#835 of 894 hh by muffin_man Jul 02, 2004 (8:59 am)
Personally, I don't want to call it an "intangible", but you could put me behind the wheel of a dozen different cars and I can tell you which continent they came from. My personal preference is for European, which generally means German.   My personal preference are for car that aren't stuffed full of extra weight. A VW-specialty. There are some great German cars, but VW doesn't make any of them. (Audi excluded)   There's just something about it. If I had to narrow it down, I'd say its the suspension setup, plus the steering and braking rates.   Suspension setup? The GTI has the crappiest rear-suspension setup in the segment. The excess weight of the GTI definitely doesn't make it steer or brake any better   My wife thought I was just a nutcase, but after I talked her into buying an Audi several years ago, within two years she would come back from a busines trip where she had a "traditional" car as her rental vehicle and curse them up one side and down the other for how "stupid/bad" they were set up.   What Audi does she have, what car did she rent? What set up didn't she like? This anecdote is too vague to be useful here.   Having found this personal preference, I no longer even bother to consider products like the Civic. Yeah, I owned a Honda many (many, many) moons ago, and it was...a car. Its also been almost a decade since my beloved VW Sirocco went away...and I still miss that darn car.   That's fine, but do you drive a GTI now? I'm not going to claim that the Si is the best car in the world, or in the segment, only that it is better than the GTI, despite its unimaginably valuable German roots.   I'd suggest driving both vehicles and comparing the amount of "dead" slack in the steering wheels, and then test-driving an even higher-end German vehicle, such as a BMW to learn just how precise a vehicle's steering system can be. You actually have to learn to drive differently when a 1/4" shift in the steering wheel is responded to by the car as steering input: it takes greater discipline, which ultimately means you have more control.   I have to laugh because the intangibles you speak of are hardly represented in the GTI. If it is so great, why advise me to go try a BMW?   If this isn't for you, it isn't for you. Feel free driving those cars who purposefully ignore small inputs because its designer intended it to be driven by Aunt Mabel who can't keep her hands still while driving.   The Si isn't available with an automatic, the 1.8t is. Overweight, unsupportive leather seats, rear torsion beam - funny you should mention Aunt Mabel, because the GTI is the Buick of the segment.   quote from Sportcompactcarweb: (re: Si)   As expected, the areas involving driver input received special consideration from Honda engineering. A first for U.S. Honda models is the use of Electrical Power Steering, eliminating the need for a power-robbing and weighty pneumatic pump. Honda cites a 2-percent fuel savings with EPS, and we can cite exquisite steering feel, no matter the vehicle's speed.   Four-wheel disc brakes feature standard ABS and electronic brake distribution, and on every occasion they were needed, they delivered. Lane discipline in Germany is a thing of the past, and on several ocassions we were required to stomp the brake pedal hard as slower traffic obliviously pulled into the left lane, and with no evident brake fade.   What do they say about the GTI 1.8t?   Best Feature: Power. In a way, it's good the stock tires are so bad. You'll want to replace them anyway, and the GTI's big wad of turbocharged torque will help you destroy them.   Worst Feature: The suspension is so soft and wallowy, we would have sworn the GTI was 300 lb heavier than it really is. The ride quality, of course, is excellent.   First three things we'd modify   1: The entire suspension Leave no stone unturned. Springs, shocks, anti-roll bars, bushings, tires. Look for a kit that has the first three or four tuned together; there are plenty of them. This chassis can be made to handle well if you try. Replies to this message: huntzinger (Jul 02, 2004 1:22 pm)
#836 of 894 Re: gsolman6 [muffin_man #833] by wetwillie Jul 02, 2004 (10:50 am)
Replying to: muffin_man (Jul 01, 2004 3:11 pm) "True, but I will take the RSX handling and shifting over the GTI, and in this type of car, I consider those things more important. A sports coupe isn't really supposed to be all that practical, so utility and ride aren't big factors (IMO). Safety equipment is always good, I'm not going to knock that. But the crash tests are very similar."   These aren't sports coupes, they're hatchbacks. Hatchbacks are by nature practical and practicality is an obvious consideration, as is ride and utility along with performance, quality ect, ect. If you're looking for sport coupes your in the wrong forum..   The reliability stats are based on old data. There was a preponderance of failures from window regulators to ignition coilpacks to mass airflow sensors. These are vendor supplied and the vendors have been dealt with (fired). I don't think you'll see a repeat performance of these high failure rates in the future.
#837 of 894 Re: hh [muffin_man #835] by huntzinger Jul 02, 2004 (1:22 pm)
Replying to: muffin_man (Jul 02, 2004 8:59 am) My personal preference are for car that aren't stuffed full of extra weight. A VW-specialty. There are some great German cars, but VW doesn't make any of them. (Audi excluded)   If you haven't noticed, pretty much all cars are laden down pretty heavily: my VW Sirocco weighed 2300lbs, but I wouldn't want to have an accident in it...by today's standards, its a thin tin can.   Suspension setup? The GTI has the crappiest rear-suspension setup in the segment.   On a FWD, the rear's setup isn't one of the highest priorities. And even for RWD, there are things that talk a good game on paper, but don't generally make for a big difference 95% of the time. For example, didn't the Chevy Corvette lack a fully independant rear for many years?   The excess weight of the GTI definitely doesn't make it steer or brake any better   Yes, there have been a ton of reviews that accuse the GTI of being a "pig", and I also agree that its front end does plow with the weight distribution of the VR6 configuration. However, neither gross weight nor brakes had anything to do with what I was talking about when I was referring to steering rates and braking rates: perhaps you actually enjoy overboosted and numb steering and brakes that lock up as soon as you touch them, but I do not. YMMV.   What Audi does she have, what car did she rent? What set up didn't she like? This anecdote is too vague to be useful here.   That car was a 1990 Audi 80, which had replaced a 1985 Ford Tempo.   And my "rental car" anecdote was not one vehicle once upon a time, but an aggregate experience across a broad cross section: Oldsmobiles, Toyotas, a couple of SUV's (Minneapolis in the winter), probably some Lumina's and Neon's too...normal fleet stuff. And because I know exactly what she's talking about and because I do even more business travel than she does, I can add my firsthand experience, which is pretty much every GM, Ford, Chryster, Toyota, Mitsu, Honda, Kia and whatever else that has fleet sales in the USA that's been used by Hertz, Avis, National, Dollar, and Alamo over the past decade.   And to reiterate what I'm specifically talking about here are things like overboosted power brakes and steering systems with deadspots that are frustratingly huge. YMMV, but I prefer a total holistic setup that is more linear on its brakes than what is typical on most GM, Ford, Toyota & Honda products today, as well as a directional control system where I can actually give it 1/4" inputs that the vehicle will accept as inputs instead of driver noise and ignore.   That's fine, but do you drive a GTI now?   No, but I did very seriously consider the GTI in 2002 and test-drove it several times before buying another product. I'll agree that its not a Corrado, but that VW was a disappointment to me too.   I'm not going to claim that the Si is the best car in the world...   Yes you are. We all have our biases.   I have to laugh because the intangibles you speak of are hardly represented in the GTI. If it is so great, why advise me to go try a BMW?   Because its petty subtle and is easy for someone who has not experienced it to overlook it. Since BMW is even more extreme in this regards, it should be more noticable to an objective individual who is sincerely looking to find for themselves what I'm talking about.   The Si isn't available with an automatic, the 1.8t is. Overweight, unsupportive leather seats, rear torsion beam   Gosh, my 911 has leather seats that people complain about...and a rear torsion beam suspension. But sorry, it can't qualify as a real sports car on M&M's checklist.   quote from Sportcompactcarweb   Sorry, but I don't really care what they have to say, because they're wrong. Here's but one example of a lie:   Lane discipline in Germany is a thing of the past...   I've done over 1000km on German roads within the past twelve months alone, and IMNSHO, the lane discipline remains quite excellent. If this writer has any grief, its not near the Wolfsburg factory, or probably any other 'Bahn in the west. Perhaps he was thinking of Italy's Autostrada?   My next trip back to Germany is in less than 90 days, so I'll let you know if anything has changed for the worse, but I really doubt it. FYI, the A6Q Avant TDI is a really sweet rental car, if you can bag one.   -hh
#838 of 894 Oh, and one other thing... by huntzinger Jul 02, 2004 (1:24 pm)
I'd have to say that the absolute worst rental car that I've had in recent memory was a Ford Mustang 5.0 that I had in Florida this past winter. Absolutely an abomination in every way.   -hh
#839 of 894 Steering by trimix Jul 02, 2004 (9:31 pm)
Anybody know if the GTI has reduced power steering or does it have the same amount as your normal average road car?
#840 of 894 Steering by riopelle Jul 03, 2004 (5:26 am)
Trimix,   The power steering is comparable to most other in its class. Heavy compared to a Camry, but in no way "reduced". The nose heavy VR6 plows considerably, the 1.8t is at least closer to having the light feel off a traditional GTI, but neither are tossable.   This discussion sent me back to the 3/02 Car and Driver comparison, which described the GTI 1.8T as having "exagerated body roll angles, a resistant shifter, less than linear power delivery, and tires that despite being the widest in this test, are tuned for rain storms more than track times." The current GTI is more of a GT (grand tourer). It's very fast on a straight line, and has quite luxurious amenities (i.e. heated leather seats), but is the absolute worst handler in its segment.   Out of curiousity, have you test drove the competitors, such as the RSX, SVT or Mazda3? Heck, go drive a Mini Cooper S just to experience truly amazing handling. What attracts you to the GTI? If it fits your priorities and you are prepared to deal with VW's unreliability issues and expenses, go for it, but there are a lot of options out there.
#841 of 894 Si vs GTI by blueiedgod Jul 03, 2004 (6:26 am)
Well for starters, I paid $14,500 for my 2002 Civic Si with 8 (eight) miles on the odometer. You paid $24K for the GTI VR6.   Seats: Si comes with un-labeled Recaro's, and like a true sports car that is designed to hold the driver in place they are suede. Leather gets too slippery in the corners, as I am sure you are aware of. I have owned cars with leather seats, and I have to say the only thing stopping me from getting TSX is the leather seats.   Steering: The Si uses a servo motor to assis steering rather than archaic power steering pump and hydraulic rack. This results in precise steering at any speed as the assist is varies with speed. Did I mention that electric PS does not place extra load on the engine? It is not electro-hydraulic that "innovative" cars use, it is purely electric.   Suspension: I believe GTI still uses torsion beam rear suspension from the 1982 Rabbit design. Although this iteration of Si is a little bit dummyfied by the MacPherson in the front, rather than the Honda typical double wishbone, the rear is still double wishbone. This allows the car with significantly less HP than GTI VR6 power though corners with higher speeds without lifting the inside rear wheel, and losing contact with the pavement.   Engine: In stock form GTI VR6 is more powerful than Si in stock form. But, since I saved $10K on the purchase price, I can put that money back into the car, if I wanted to. Like said before, there are update options from turbo/supercharging, nitrous, swapping block (2.5 liter) with a more powerful TSX, and RSX type S head (true VTEC), or a combination of forced induction and bigger engine. Honda has always built engines sturdier than the output would have required them to be. A stock bottom end of a Honda engine can safely withstand 400 hp before requiring a stronger crank and mains.   Psychology: I understand that you want to justify spending $24,000 on a car that perfoms like a $15,000 Civic, and it is ok with me.   People spend tons of money on their Mustangs only to make them perform like a stock Corvette. They don't realize that a stock corvette can be had for under $40K at the dealer with all the rebates and incentives, while a mustang that perfoms like a corvette is about $60K.   Question: Let me ask you this, is your GTI VR6 manual or auto?
#842 of 894 quick point by seminole_kev Jul 03, 2004 (9:25 am)
"Did I mention that electric PS does not place extra load on the engine?"   Actually it does. Where do you think the electricity is generated from to drive it? Replies to this message: blueiedgod (Jul 03, 2004 12:38 pm)
#843 of 894 Re: quick point [seminole_kev #842] by blueiedgod Jul 03, 2004 (12:38 pm)
Replying to: seminole_kev (Jul 03, 2004 9:25 am) The Si has alternator that automatically disconnects from the battery once it is fully charged and does not engage until the battery is somewhere around 80% of capacity. It is not a mechanical engeagemnt, like A/c pump, but rather electronic, where the alternator is simply taken out of the circuit. No load on alternator means no load on the engine.
#844 of 894 hh by muffin_man Jul 04, 2004 (11:01 am)
If you haven't noticed, pretty much all cars are laden down pretty heavily: my VW Sirocco weighed 2300lbs, but I wouldn't want to have an accident in it...by today's standards, its a thin tin can.   300 pounds is 300 pounds. The Si is 300 pounds closer to the Sirocco than the GTI is.   Yes, there have been a ton of reviews that accuse the GTI of being a "pig", and I also agree that its front end does plow with the weight distribution of the VR6 configuration. However, neither gross weight nor brakes had anything to do with what I was talking about when I was referring to steering rates and braking rates: perhaps you actually enjoy overboosted and numb steering and brakes that lock up as soon as you touch them, but I do not. YMMV.   I agree, my car does not have the steering feel of a BMW. But neither does the GTI. My steering is not numb, and my brakes don't lock up as soon as I touch them. The GTI handling is poor for this segment, there is no two ways about it. It is a great cross country car.   That car was a 1990 Audi 80, which had replaced a 1985 Ford Tempo.   And she liked the Audi better than the Tempo? I find that hard to believe!   And to reiterate what I'm specifically talking about here are things like overboosted power brakes and steering systems with deadspots that are frustratingly huge. YMMV, but I prefer a total holistic setup that is more linear on its brakes than what is typical on most GM, Ford, Toyota & Honda products today, as well as a directional control system where I can actually give it 1/4" inputs that the vehicle will accept as inputs instead of driver noise and ignore.   So why are you defending the GTI? Is it the paradigm of these inputs? I'm not claiming the M3 is soft, I'm claiming the GTI is soft. And everyone knows it!   I'm not going to claim that the Si is the best car in the world... Yes you are. We all have our biases.   Give me a Miata or an Mr-2. Dream car would be the Elise.   I have to laugh because the intangibles you speak of are hardly represented in the GTI. If it is so great, why advise me to go try a BMW?   Because its petty subtle and is easy for someone who has not experienced it to overlook it. Since BMW is even more extreme in this regards, it should be more noticable to an objective individual who is sincerely looking to find for themselves what I'm talking about.   And you are claiming to be objective? Your posts are bordering on offensive.   Gosh, my 911 has leather seats that people complain about...and a rear torsion beam suspension. But sorry, it can't qualify as a real sports car on M&M's checklist.   Ah...911 owner. Why am I bothering? In case you didn't know, your car has a substantially different suspension setup than the GTI, but you would rather take cheap shots at me than talk about it.   quote from Sportcompactcarweb Sorry, but I don't really care what they have to say, because they're wrong. Here's but one example of a lie:   So basically, you don't care about what anyone has to say that you disagree with. Totally objective.   I've done over 1000km on German roads within the past twelve months alone, and IMNSHO, the lane discipline remains quite excellent. If this writer has any grief, its not near the Wolfsburg factory, or probably any other 'Bahn in the west. Perhaps he was thinking of Italy's Autostrada?   Well, I'm sure that a 911 owner like yourself is much more experienced in all things automotive. Whether arriving at the country club, or shopping at a high end supermarket, there really is no substitute for the Porsche 911.   Uh, oh, my objectivity is showing! Replies to this message: huntzinger (Jul 06, 2004 5:32 am) huntzinger (Jul 06, 2004 5:43 am)

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